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Archive 2016 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

realVivek
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

justruss wrote:
Presumably you bought into the system for what it provided, not what it (never explicitly) promised to provide, balanced against what other systems provided.

"Palm sized, light mastered" that is what the A7 advert proclaimed. Sony did tout the size as a salient feature of their A7 cams.

Jul 28, 2016 at 05:59 AM

Holger
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

realVivek wrote:
"Palm sized, light mastered" that is what the A7 advert proclaimed. Sony did tout the size as a salient feature of their A7 cams.

Is this not true anymore of the A7sii, A7rii, etc.? It is not including lenses, is it?

Jul 28, 2016 at 06:21 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

realVivek wrote:
The RX1R II (apart from the original A7 series cams) is likely to be my last Sony purchase. I am not at all interested in the truck sized lenses and the bloated camera bodies.

It's a catch - I believe Sony recognizes very well that many amateurs are interested in smaller camera sizes including FF cameras and also in smaller high quality lenses. But I also understand that Sony is forced to go after market areas which might promise a good increase in profits if users decide to go with Sony instead of the established other two big brands - for sports/wedding/event/photo journalism. In those areas still seems to be a perception that a bigger camera is better - for a mix of reasons like to show-off and look more professional with a bigger camera, or the illusion that a longer lens is better with a bigger camera attached. We also see in recent release of Sony lenses that event photography is certainly a focus area for Sony now.

Your point is well taken, too - likely early times when Sony tested the market with FF mirrorless and even encouraged users to use third party MF and AF lenses on their A7 series cameras are nearly over by now. Future mirrorless FF cameras - I speculate now! - will likely be more focused for best performance with FE lenses and will less and less take into account potential use of third party MF lenses for example. This is one reason why I never vested in any E-mount lens and only used my A7R with third party lenses so far. I will be also cautious with an update of my A7R to a newer Sony camera version since I am afraid I might run in trouble using my MF lenses on a newer body in the future. Certainly I won't be an early adopter......

Jul 28, 2016 at 06:54 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

Holger wrote:
Is this not true anymore of the A7sii, A7rii, etc.? It is not including lenses, is it?

Unfortunately it is true that the A7 MkII series cameras increased in size - one thing I always criticized and personally never liked since I prefer the ergonomics of the smaller original A7 series bodies. Sony likely listened to complaints of other users who wanted a bigger grip etc.

There are several lenses out now which have a smaller size - but the majority of the FE lenses are still more similar to DSLR sized lenses. I believe one reason for this was the overwhelming success Sony had with its original A7 series and had to deliver faster than expected more E-mount lenses. Sony/Zeiss used blueprints from existing DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount among some other slight changes. To make lenses smaller without compromising in image quality requires new lens designs and this takes time. That's why we were just seeing smaller lenses showing up within the E-mount line more recently.

Jul 28, 2016 at 07:05 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
but the majority of the FE lenses are still more similar to DSLR sized lenses

Sony/Zeiss used blueprints from existing DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount among some other slight changes.

I wasn't aware of this - which lenses in the Sony / Zeiss FE lineup are just DSLR designs with the mount changed?

Jul 28, 2016 at 07:52 AM

justruss
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

realVivek wrote:
"Palm sized, light mastered" that is what the A7 advert proclaimed. Sony did tout the size as a salient feature of their A7 cams.

An advertisement (careful) for a single product (A7)-- that was true. Still is true. You might even argue (I would) is true for the mk2 cameras.

Again, you buy into what is there and what is officially announced. You buy into what you think may be-- at your own risk.

I'm in the camp that likes smaller and lighter, and switched for that reason. It's still paying off. I bought a A7rII and an FE 28. That's how I bought into the system, and I'm happy with it. I've since added the sold an FE 16-35. I've purchased (and love) the Batis 18mm (not tiny, but light). I'm buying an FE 50mm f/1.8. And I'm hoping for a 35mm f/2 and some kind of fastish, short-tele like an 85/100 f/2. I can't really hold Sony responsible if those latter two lenses don't appear-- they never promised them to me.

That's my point. That's all.

Jul 28, 2016 at 08:04 AM

bjornthun
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
Unfortunately it is true that the A7 MkII series cameras increased in size - one thing I always criticized and personally never liked since I prefer the ergonomics of the smaller original A7 series bodies. Sony likely listened to complaints of other users who wanted a bigger grip etc.

There are several lenses out now which have a smaller size - but the majority of the FE lenses are still more similar to DSLR sized lenses. I believe one reason for this was the overwhelming success Sony had with its original A7 series and had to deliver faster than expected...Show more →

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ecarlino wrote:
I wasn't aware of this - which lenses in the Sony / Zeiss FE lineup are just DSLR designs with the mount changed?

This is not true. None of the Sony E or FE lenses are DSLR designs with just changed mounts. They are new mirrorless designs, and wouldn't even work on a DSLR, due to a too short back focal distance, i.e. the rear lens element would collide with the mirror in the DSLR.

Jul 28, 2016 at 08:34 AM

GMPhotography
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

I'm a little perplexed they added to the systems set of glass in the 1.4 range which has no affect on the F2 range or the 2.8 range of lenses and everyone is upset. This is Sonys moment to make some 1.4 glass for folks that need the speed at this time period. The other lens lines are most likely just on hold for a short time and everyone is up in arms about it but the flip side is there is still a very nice selection of F2 and 2.8 lines for folks to pick from. There just giving us some 1.4 glass to folks that need that line . I don't understand the complaint about this or more important is the patience. I've been waiting 2 years for a 85 1.4 native , I got it now. I'll take that new 50 1.4 too . Some of us need this stuff and in the process Sony draws more people to the system. This is a business to earn revenue line any other business

Jul 28, 2016 at 08:44 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

bjornthun wrote:
This is not true. None of the Sony E or FE lenses are DSLR designs with just changed mounts. They are new mirrorless designs, and wouldn't even work on a DSLR, due to a too short back focal distance, i.e. the rear lens element would collide with the mirror in the DSLR.

hopefully the sarcasm of my original post was obvious - i was following up on my earlier post that highlighted there seem to be a lot of dissatisfied people - some who want smaller some who want bigger. they both miss the point that Sony and Zeiss have been releasing new lenses at a fast pace - especially for a new market that involves quite a lot of capital at risk for each new item.

my observation is that the people who are in the "wanting smaller" camp are the ones who tend to complain a lot more and make a lot more "out there" assertions (e.g. the lenses are just DSLR designs with the mount changed). when a 'big' lens is announced, they flood those threads with complaints. the people interested in "bigger" simply tend to ignore the threads when the 50/1.8 or 28/2 are announced for example.

Jul 28, 2016 at 08:48 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

GMPhotography wrote:
I'm a little perplexed they added to the systems set of glass in the 1.4 range which has no affect on the F2 range or the 2.8 range of lenses and everyone is upset. This is Sonys moment to make some 1.4 glass for folks that need the speed at this time period. The other lens lines are most likely just on hold for a short time and everyone is up in arms about it but the flip side is there is still a very nice selection of F2 and 2.8 lines for folks to pick from. There just giving...Show more →

Guy - like i was saying - it's these guys that are in the "small" camp (many of whom bought the a7 and are claiming they'll stick with it and just adapt other mfg lenses) who are the most boisterous. frankly, if i was Sony, i'd completely ignore them b/c they are unlikely to spend any money - not all, but many, are into buying $100 used old glass and sticking it on a first generation a7 and then showing up here bitching about all this awesome f/1.4 glass that has amazing rendering but they'll never buy it - but it is annoying to hear the same complaints from the same crowd all the time.

btw - i know there are a lot of guys who do spend money on Sony and love the 28/2, 35/2.8, 50/1.8 etc - so i'm not talking about you. and my sense is that the GM and f/1.4 lenses are finally being released this year b/c the a9 is next. but then it would be my guess that the mix is more balanced going forward. let's not forget, the initial wave was the smaller/lighter lenses: 35/2.8, 55/1.8, f/4 zooms.

Jul 28, 2016 at 08:52 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

bjornthun wrote:
---------------------------------------------

This is not true. None of the Sony E or FE lenses are DSLR designs with just changed mounts. They are new mirrorless designs, and wouldn't even work on a DSLR, due to a too short back focal distance, i.e. the rear lens element would collide with the mirror in the DSLR.

Tell me why they aren't - I stated above that slight changes were done from original FL designs of DSLR lenses but certainly most weren't redesigned just for the smaller E-mount even if the rear lens element was moved. Nevertheless, some of the newer FE lenses are getting smaller and likely are more redesigned.

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:00 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

ecarlino wrote:
they both miss the point that Sony and Zeiss have been releasing new lenses at a fast pace - especially for a new market that involves quite a lot of capital at risk for each new item.

I never said that Sony is slow releasing lenses - the opposite is true, here I fully agree with you.

my observation is that the people who are in the "wanting smaller" camp are the ones who tend to complain a lot more and make a lot more "out there" assertions (e.g. the lenses are just DSLR designs with the mount changed). when a 'big' lens is announced, they flood those threads with complaints. the people interested in "bigger" simply tend to ignore the threads when the 50/1.8 or 28/2 are announced for example.

As I stated above, I have never vested in any FE lens, neither big or small. I only use third party, mostly rangefinder lenses on my A7R since I don't rely on AF and prefer real small and compact lens size. Of course Sony/Zeiss used existing DSLR blueprints when making the first FE lenses which were released a few years ago. Nothing wrong with it, they just had to come up with some solutions fast which didn't compromise in image quality.

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:07 AM

bjornthun
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

ecarlino wrote:
hopefully the sarcasm of my original post was obvious - i was following up on my earlier post that highlighted there seem to be a lot of dissatisfied people - some who want smaller some who want bigger. they both miss the point that Sony and Zeiss have been releasing new lenses at a fast pace - especially for a new market that involves quite a lot of capital at risk for each new item.

my observation is that the people who are in the "wanting smaller" camp are the ones who tend to complain a lot more and make a...Show more →

Some of the sarcasm was lost, I'm afraid.

Anyway, I'm a bit in joth camps, e.g. having both the small 28/2, 35/2.8, 50/1.8, but also a few "big" lenses like the 90/2.8 macro and even the Sony/Zeiss 138/1.8 + adapter = 1.4 kiligrams. I simply use both small and big lenses,mand I hope Sony will follow both paths actually. Considering that the full frame E mount system is only three years old by now, I too find that Sony, Zeiss and Voigtländer (Cosina) have done an excellent job at catering to different needs and preferences..

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:11 AM

bjornthun
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
Tell me why they aren't - I stated above that slight changes were done from original FL designs of DSLR lenses but certainly most weren't redesigned just for the smaller E-mount even if the rear lens element was moved. Nevertheless, some of the newer FE lenses are getting smaller and likely are more redesigned.

Go to www.dyxum.com and check out which A mount lenses that previously existed for Sony and Minolta A mount and compare that to the current FE mount offerings. The FE lenses are new designs.

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:16 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

bjornthun wrote:
Go to www.dyxum.com and check out which A mount lenses that previously existed for Sony and Minolta A mount and compare that to the current FE mount offerings. The FE lenses are new designs.

Good link, thanks for sharing - but check out some of the Zeiss (D)SLR blueprints in comparison. For example the Sony 50/1.8 E-mount lens looks similar in design to some of the Zeiss 50/2 lenses.

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:45 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
check out some of the Zeiss (D)SLR blueprints in comparison. For example the Sony 50/1.8 E-mount lens looks similar in design to some of the Zeiss 50/2 lenses.

there are certain "standard" lens designs that many current lenses are derived from, but that is VERY different from your assertion that Sony/Zeiss took older DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount.

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:55 AM

retrofocus
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

ecarlino wrote:
there are certain "standard" lens designs that many current lenses are derived from, but that is VERY different from your assertion that Sony/Zeiss took older DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount.

For some reason you seem to either have a problem fully reading my posts here, or you try purposely to change the original intent. Here is what I said above: "Sony/Zeiss used blueprints from existing DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount among some other slight changes"

Jul 28, 2016 at 09:59 AM

bjornthun
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
Good link, thanks for sharing - but check out some of the Zeiss (D)SLR blueprints in comparison. For example the Sony 50/1.8 E-mount lens looks similar in design to some of the Zeiss 50/2 lenses.

The Sony 50/1.8 FE has a back focal distance of approx. 35mm (meassured by me), which is a wee bit to short for use on a DSLR. Zeiss states that you need about 38-42mm to clear the mirror. The Zeiss ZM 50/2 and Loxia 50/2 are very similar to the Sony 50/1.8 FE, since they are variations on the Planar or double Gauss. In order to make a 50/1.8 or 50/2 Planar type work on a DSLR, the front group is just given a more negative refractive power than it would otherwise have, in order to increase the back focal distance a few milimeters.. So a doble Gauss 50mm for a DSLR will be slightly retrofocus, but the blueprints or lens schematic will look quite similar, at least at first glance. The Planar lens formula is about a hundred years old, so it pre-dates DSLRs, but fortunately was easily adaptable to (D)SLRs.

Jul 28, 2016 at 10:06 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

retrofocus wrote:
For some reason you seem to either have a problem fully reading my posts here, or you try purposely to change the original intent. Here is what I said above: "Sony/Zeiss used blueprints from existing DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount among some other slight changes"

actually your full statement was:
retrofocus wrote:
I believe one reason for this was the overwhelming success Sony had with its original A7 series and had to deliver faster than expected more E-mount lenses. Sony/Zeiss used blueprints from existing DSLR lenses and simply changed the mount among some other slight changes. To make lenses smaller without compromising in image quality requires new lens designs and this takes time.

and your point was (as i took it) that the lenses that Sony released were basically DSLR designs with the mount changed and HENCE they are DSLR-sized.

do you have any specific examples of "large" Sony lenses that were simply DSLR designs with the mount changed. or, put another way, examples of large Sony lenses that are large because Sony was in a rush to get them out the door, as you assert.

there is a common theme among the "i have never bought a sony lens and sony lenses are huge" crowd that the lenses are big because Sony is lazy and hasn't done the design/engineering to make the lenses smaller.

and while i know there are Leica lenses that are smaller - are you going to fork over Leica prices for an FE lens?

Jul 28, 2016 at 10:22 AM

ecarlino
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · My take on Sony and New camera and lenses and what is really happening

bjornthun wrote:
I'm a bit in joth camps, e.g. having both the small 28/2, 35/2.8, 50/1.8, but also a few "big" lenses like the 90/2.8 macro and even the Sony/Zeiss 138/1.8 + adapter = 1.4 kiligrams. I simply use both small and big lenses,mand I hope Sony will follow both paths actually. Considering that the full frame E mount system is only three years old by now, I too find that Sony, Zeiss and Voigtländer (Cosina) have done an excellent job at catering to different needs and preferences..

I am in both (well, two) camps as well (Batis and f/1.4) and respect those who are interested in smaller (e.g. 28/2, 50/1.8) - and i think Sony has been working hard to roll out new lenses for everyone.

I'm just tired of the same 'ol complaint that all Sony lenses are big and that they're big because they're just re-hashed DSLR lenses. It simply isn't true (neither that Sony is only interested in big lenses nor that the lens designs are not new).

Jul 28, 2016 at 10:33 AM

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