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Archive 2016 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Pixel Perfect
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

phibes wrote:
maybe the dual-pixel tech takes its toll ... its a 48mp sensor, dont forget.

Only 48MP for phase detection, for imaging, the dual pixels are combined, so luminance should be very close to a single ordinary pixel fo the same size. There might be some loss of luminance due to the nature of the L and R pixel masks losing a tiny bit of the incident flux, but given the 1DX II uses DPAF and has improved high ISO sensitivity it's at most a small order effect.

Mar 22, 2016 at 03:30 AM

dehowie
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

RSHPhotography wrote:
I for one am really looking forward to the D500. I borrowed a 7D2 with the 300mm 2.8 IS and shooting an outdoor football game at night is a chore with Canon. It cannot do 'black' at high ISOs. Too many color artifacts as if there's mini colorful confetti thrown up. Obviously I'm exaggerating, but when I shoot using my Nikon D700 (Full frame, I know, not fair), it's a lot easier to fix in post.

My 6400 ISO of the 9 year old Nikon sensor cleans up beautifully in Lightroom. And that has been the most beautiful thing about...Show more →

Yea Canon can't do blacks with its 1Dx which has been and still is well until the 1DxMk2 arrives the world best sports camera.
You may want opens your one eye and check the sidelines at say any major sporting event and you will see a multitude of the best sports photographers who are extremely happy with Canons rendition of black..oh and the AF works..oh and the lenses are 20% lighter..
Hey I used to shoot Nikon on film for many years and be happy to shoot a D5 so I wasn't taking a backward step from the 1Dx pity for the Nikon guys it's taken 4 years to catch up.
But for the life of my why would anyone go near a Sony?
Buy a D810 get the DR with a good range of lenses plus AF that mostly works unlike the Sony things.
How many firmware upgrades will it take before people just realise it doesn't work?
But hey what does AF matter when you have two stops of extra DR I mean those blurry oof images will have great color!

Mar 22, 2016 at 03:59 AM

technic
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

thw2 wrote:
Look carefully at the black areas in D7200. See how the color shifts from black to brown as exposure compensation is increased from +1 to +5 eV. What's happening here?

I don't understand what 'problem' you see with the D7200 image. Yes, when pushing 5 stops the black becomes very slightly magenta or red. Maybe with the 80D as well, but it is masked by the much stronger noise. I see the same slight magenta bias in the D7200 mid grey areas when pushed. Should be easy to correct if you don't like it, a small price to pay for rescuing the shadows.

Pushing 6 stops both cameras have a more obvious cast in the blacks (magenta for D7200, magenta/blue for 80D?) but still nothing serious IMHO - unlike the difference in noise which is really worlds apart. The D7200 totally destroys the 80D here especially in the darker parts of the scene, it's as if one is comparing a DSLR with a small sensor compact ...

Mar 22, 2016 at 04:03 AM

dhphoto
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Not PC to say this but if you really need to push images 5 or 6 stops you are doing something wrong

This preoccupation with DR always surprises me, it's an issue I have never worried about at all.

I know, YMMV, but I shoot all sorts of different things for a living

Mar 22, 2016 at 04:10 AM

Pixel Perfect
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

dhphoto wrote:
Not PC to say this but if you really need to push images 5 or 6 stops you are doing something wrong

This preoccupation with DR always surprises me, it's an issue I have never worried about at all.

I know, YMMV, but I shoot all sorts of different things for a living

It may not be something one would do often, but there are indeed super contrasty situations where one may find multiple exposures or GND impractical due to say motion and in those cases being able to protect highlights and then boost shadows/midtones back to a level where there is good detail present is a wonderful feature. Also shoot white birds against a dark forest in bright sunshine and try to retain detail in both. There are ways to mitigate contrast that mostly work but this extended low ISO DR is very desirable and makes life a lot easier IMO.

Mar 22, 2016 at 05:05 AM

dhphoto
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Mar 22, 2016 at 05:08 AM

Sorbet
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

dhphoto wrote:
Not PC to say this but if you really need to push images 5 or 6 stops you are doing something wrong

This preoccupation with DR always surprises me, it's an issue I have never worried about at all.

I know, YMMV, but I shoot all sorts of different things for a living

The people at DPR are seriously obsessed with DR. They seemingly have no clue about dealing with contrast other than to use a Sony sensor and push 5 or 6 stops. One of their editors says in a comment about DR: "it's the difference between a keeper and a reject (unless you don't mind delivering noisy images to your client)."

So you need a Sony sensor if you don't want to deliver noisy images to your client? That may be news to a lot of professional Canon users.

Mar 22, 2016 at 08:10 AM

dhphoto
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Sorbet wrote:
The people at DPR are seriously obsessed with DR. They seemingly have no clue about dealing with contrast other than to use a Sony sensor and push 5 or 6 stops. One of their editors says in a comment about DR: "it's the difference between a keeper and a reject (unless you don't mind delivering noisy images to your client)."

So you need a Sony sensor if you don't want to deliver noisy images to your client? That may be news to a lot of professional Canon users.

I am usually in a minority thinking it's just better to expose properly in the first place and I can see the benefit for certain types of photography where you simply can't control a high contrast scene (and can't bracket) but the fixation with DR does look rather like taking the path of least resistance (the easy way out) IMHO. Certainly the DR of a camera doesn't matter to me as much as it does to many.

I still use the 18 meg sensor in my Eos M's quite happily for certain things because I know how to use it, for many that sensor is simply the spawn of Satan

Mar 22, 2016 at 08:22 AM

technic
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Pixel Perfect wrote:
It may not be something one would do often, but there are indeed super contrasty situations where one may find multiple exposures or GND impractical due to say motion and in those cases being able to protect highlights and then boost shadows/midtones back to a level where there is good detail present is a wonderful feature. Also shoot white birds against a dark forest in bright sunshine and try to retain detail in both. There are ways to mitigate contrast that mostly work but this extended low ISO DR is very desirable and makes life a lot easier IMO.

Indeed, it makes life so much easier...

I run into this problem with many of my landscape images (especially near the sea), and also for wildlife shots where totally blocked shadows may be great for some but definitely not 'natural' (i.e. definitely not like what a normal person would see). With my landscape images these are typically situations where bracketing would not work or where carefully placed ND grad filters would be required to get a decent result. But why bother if you could get those 2-3 stops extra right from the sensor? Of course there will always be situations where the DR is too big for any current sensor but for me the difference between max DR 11-12 or 14-15 stops is huge in practice.

With fast moving wildlife you often cannot preset the optimal exposure and auto-exposure will be nothing but a rough estimate; having some error margin always helps. We don't all shoot in carefully controlled lighting conditions ...

It's also sad when looking at the DPR comparison scene for low ISO that D7200 and some other Nikons are at least a stop better (not worse ...) than Canon FF cameras like the 6D. So much for the 'FF' advantage if you don't work in near darkness. And with far better DR available in new display technologies like OLED, the limitations of current cameras will become painfully obvious even if you don't push the shadows.

Mar 22, 2016 at 08:49 AM

KKFung
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

A question here :- how you guys recover the tone and correct the color when pull up the shadow 5-6 stops? I can never make it right, image always dull and strange tone no matter it is canon sensor or sony sensor I used.

Mar 22, 2016 at 09:50 AM

form
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

4-5 stop pushing is usually a bad accident (like an abrupt change in environment without having a chance to change exposure settings), but it's really nice to be able to keep the shot if that happens.

Mar 22, 2016 at 10:30 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Since the topic seems to have come up, here are a couple of posts about recovering (by intention!) shadows in post.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/08/17/a-photograph-exposed-technique-and-interpretation-in-post

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/07/19/the-canon-5ds-r-dynamic-range-examples

While the Sony sensors still provide a bit more DR than Canon sensors, it is quite amazing what you can get out of shadows with our Canon gear.

Dan

Mar 22, 2016 at 10:38 AM

thw2
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

technic wrote:
I don't understand what 'problem' you see with the D7200 image. Yes, when pushing 5 stops the black becomes very slightly magenta or red. Maybe with the 80D as well, but it is masked by the much stronger noise.

Just look at Nikon's very own D5500 in the comparison. It maintains the black color all the way through from +1 to +5 eV, with low noise.

Difference lies in D7200 sensor.

To be fair, the Sony A77 MkII is worse: black is turned into green.

Mar 22, 2016 at 11:14 AM

alundeb
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

I appreciate the lower read noise from Canon, and also the fact that the shadow debate is literally more nuanced, with magenta, green and brown.

Mar 22, 2016 at 11:30 AM

Stoffer
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

Sorbet wrote:
The people at DPR are seriously obsessed with DR. They seemingly have no clue about dealing with contrast other than to use a Sony sensor and push 5 or 6 stops. One of their editors says in a comment about DR: "it's the difference between a keeper and a reject (unless you don't mind delivering noisy images to your client)."

The word obsessed is really fitting here. Look, I enjoy the high DR of my Sony A7r2 sensor, but the DPReview guys preach Exposure to the Right and heavy shadows recovery like it is the only way to take a decent photo. They are on a crusade or narrow minded, I can't tell which.

Post processing is a big part of the enjoyment of photography for me, so sometimes a high DR sensor really comes in handy for me, and I have reached the limit of the 1D X a couple of times. I love a high latitude sensor, but those DPReview guys, especially Technical Editor Rishi Sanyal, is just obsessed. I might agree on his technical points about DR, but the way he keeps on arguing about it is just too rich for my blood.

Mar 22, 2016 at 11:31 AM

ggreene
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

KKFung wrote:
A question here :- how you guys recover the tone and correct the color when pull up the shadow 5-6 stops? I can never make it right, image always dull and strange tone no matter it is canon sensor or sony sensor I used.

I would agree. Have yet to see an image with shadows pushed 5+ stops that looks "real" for lack of a better term. It always seems to have that HDR tone to it that just looks fake. Even some of the less exaggerated pushes look fake to me.

Mar 22, 2016 at 11:44 AM

technic
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

KKFung wrote:
A question here :- how you guys recover the tone and correct the color when pull up the shadow 5-6 stops? I can never make it right, image always dull and strange tone no matter it is canon sensor or sony sensor I used.

When pulling many stops it is almost by definition local adjustments that require using layers in Photoshop. No easy way to do it 'automatically' for the whole image, although I guess a suitable HDR program might work sometimes.

Even when using a simple 2-3 stop ND grad filter in Camera RAW I already get visible chroma noise in my Canon images that is almost impossible to clean up. Having 2-4 stops more DR would be a big help there and enable working without real ND grad filters (much easier to carefully adjust in post than in real life ...).

---------------------------------------------

thw2 wrote:
Just look at Nikon's very own D5500 in the comparison. It maintains the black color all the way through from +1 to +5 eV, with low noise.

Difference lies in D7200 sensor.

To be fair, the Sony A77 MkII is worse: black is turned into green.

There is a difference in how the RAW converter treats these sensors.

I don't see a problem in the normal image areas of the DPR scene, it's only visible in the near black parts if you look for it. If you have a massive amount of deep shadow areas in your image it might become more obvious, in which case one could adjust the blackpoint for the RGB channels. To me the noise (and detail loss) of the Canon DSLRs is far more disturbing (and more difficult to correct) than the slight change of the shadow hues - YMMV.

Mar 22, 2016 at 12:22 PM

alundeb
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

technic wrote:
To me the noise (and detail loss) of the Canon DSLRs is far more disturbing (and more difficult to correct) than the slight change of the shadow hues - YMMV.

I have to disagree on that. The color casts are not hue changes, they are additive false luminance imbalanced by the white balance calculations. Such imbalance depends heavily on the exact luminance in each pixel and is very difficult to correct for. The (now) uniform noise from Canon is easy to deal with compared to the banding we used to have in the old days when I stood on the barricades for better shadows from Canon.

Mar 22, 2016 at 01:36 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

before:

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/02DarkestExposure.jpg

after:

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/03ExposureAdjustments.jpg

- - - - -

before:

http://i1.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/images/kolob/01KolobRaw.jpg

after:

http://i0.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/KolobCanyonMorningFallFoliageCliffs20121014.jpg

scan of a 24" wide print — section at actual size at 72dpi — not a final example, and it has some issues that would be resolve with further post processing:

http://i1.wp.com/www.gdanmitchell.com/images/kolob/07ScannedPrintSection.jpg

Mar 22, 2016 at 01:56 PM

snapsy
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)

ggreene wrote:
I would agree. Have yet to see an image with shadows pushed 5+ stops that looks "real" for lack of a better term. It always seems to have that HDR tone to it that just looks fake. Even some of the less exaggerated pushes look fake to me.

This is a 5EV push:

Orig
+5EV

Mar 22, 2016 at 02:06 PM

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