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Archive 2015 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory He...

GMPhotography
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Rich try this since the upper right side looks out . On tripod go to upper right with zoom feature 12x and focus the bad area as best you can , than shoot that and see from 1.4 on what it takes on the upper left side. This was a easy way for me to confirm my slight issue on my FE 35 1.4. Also I would try a native lens no adapter and see if that upper right is constantly out. Good luck I'm still hoping this is ultimately the lens to get.

Nov 23, 2015 at 03:15 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

GMPhotography wrote:
Rich try this since the upper right side looks out . On tripod go to upper right with zoom feature 12x and focus the bad area as best you can , than shoot that and see from 1.4 on what it takes on the upper left side. This was a easy way for me to confirm my slight issue on my FE 35 1.4. Also I would try a native lens no adapter and see if that upper right is constantly out. Good luck I'm still hoping this is ultimately the lens to get.

Hi Guy,

Unfortunately I have no native lenses to try. I ran my tests at both f1.4 and f5.6 (getting much closer at f5.6) checking the focus points at 14.4X magnification at the center and the upper left and the upper right portions of the frame for the initial tests with my Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM lens with my Hawk's Factory Helioid V5. I ran a similar but more simplified test this morning using the Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM and my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor lens on my Phigment adapter than the initial tests. Finally I ran similar tests with my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 with my Novoflex adapter. All tests have suggested the same issue. I would say that it would be extremely unlikely that using 2 different M mount lenses with 2 different M mount adapters and a Leica R lens with a 3rd adapter would all have the same problem. But, I will run some additional test of other subjects to confirm the "problem".

Rich

Edited on Nov 23, 2015 at 06:27 PM · View previous versions

Nov 23, 2015 at 03:32 PM

GMPhotography
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Sounds good I'm just hoping it's not the sensor but if this is a mod camera they could fix this but of course the hassle of sending it back.

Nov 23, 2015 at 03:55 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Hi Rich,

It does seem that the sensor is slightly misaligned. I think that means you will need to send it back to Kolari. They seem to have good service, however, and ought to be able to fix it. It is a hassle to send it back, but if all is fixed not a super big issue.

Nov 23, 2015 at 04:16 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Hi Steve,

Right now I can't remember where I put my jeweler's screw drivers to check the camera lens mount. But at Photo Plus on October 22, Sony had Professional service conducted on our cameras including a sensor cleaning and as I recall all outer screws were to be checked. So, I presume that the lens mount was checked and the screws were checked.

I did send an e-mail off to Ilija at Kolari Vision of the possible issue and that I was going to run more tests.

By the way, my R 35mm f2 Summicron was sold.

Unfortunately, over the weekend I looked at my R 50mm f2 Summicron V2 that Leica performed a complete CLA on January 11, 2013 and noticed some oil on the aperture blades front and back. I can't believe it and it hasn't been used that much. I have a call in to Sherry Krauter about this and hopefully she can just clean the blades without a CLA. I hope that I hear from her and don't have to send it to Leica.

When it rains it pours.

Rich

Nov 23, 2015 at 04:20 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

zhangyue wrote:
Rich, shooting WO at infinity is quick way to test lens decenter or not to avoid setup error. With more than one lens, adapter, you can easily tell if it is a body issue, adapter issue or Lens issue.

I agree. Since both the lens and the camera are new, it could be either or both.

Meanwhile I would see if anyone nearby, a dealer or friend has an M lens to loan--or your 40/2 is fine as well. This would makes things much simpler, as you could see if it's the camera or lens. I would take take everything outside where there is a long view, roof top or hill and shoot 1.4, 2, 4, 5.6 8 and 11.

I.e. shoot a proper landscape where the foreground is also distant.

Really any lens would be fine to compare.

I know Charles K had to send his Kolari A7r back once, so it could just as easily be the camera.

Sorry you have to deal with this, but as you know anyone who is buying many lenses sees copy variation (or does not check). Ming tried 6 FE 55/1.8 lenses. It's good you want to check, because now is the time to address it, camera or lens.

Philip, sent his 35/1.7 back for decentering, (I think) also made by cosina, so it could easily be the lens. I hear of bad modern Leica copies, 28 cron 50 APO, etc not infrequently. Most people never check, they just assume it is fine.

Of course it could be the adapter, so if you have two I would try them both also.

Nov 23, 2015 at 09:14 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

uhoh7 wrote:
I agree. Since both the lens and the camera are new, it could be either or both.

Meanwhile I would see if anyone nearby, a dealer or friend has an M lens to loan--or your 40/2 is fine as well. This would makes things much simpler, as you could see if it's the camera or lens. I would take take everything outside where there is a long view, roof top or hill and shoot 1.4, 2, 4, 5.6 8 and 11.

I.e. shoot a proper landscape where the foreground is also distant.

Really any lens would be fine to compare.

I...Show more →

Hi Charle,

If you didn't read further down in the discussion that I did additional tests with my Phigment adapter and both my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM and my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor as well as my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 with my Novoflex adapter and experienced the same issues. I will run some additional tests but at this point it appears to be a camera issue, most likely the sensor, unless I have made some kind of error.

Rich

Nov 24, 2015 at 12:04 AM

charles.K
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charle,

If you didn't read further down in the discussion that I did additional tests with my Phigment adapter and both my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM and my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor as well as my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 with my Novoflex adapter and experienced the same issues. I will run some additional tests but at this point it appears to be a camera issue, most likely the sensor, unless I have made some kind of error.

Rich

Hi Rich,

I was one of the first adopters, and as Charlie mentioned my A7r had to be sent back as the sensor did have an issue. Then during the repair the A7r became faulty. Ilija was fantastic and the all the repairs were done under warranty with no delay. I suspect you may have a sensor issue, and hopefully it does not take too long to be repaired.

If you speak to Ilija, I am sure he will rush it through for you

Nov 24, 2015 at 12:14 AM

uhoh7
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Charle,

If you didn't read further down in the discussion that I did additional tests with my Phigment adapter and both my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM and my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor as well as my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 with my Novoflex adapter and experienced the same issues. I will run some additional tests but at this point it appears to be a camera issue, most likely the sensor, unless I have made some kind of error.

Rich

Sorry to hear that, I'm sure they will get on it, and also you might ask them if it would help to send a lens with the body. I know in the original mods Michael mentioned this, and had sent them one.

Nov 24, 2015 at 12:11 PM

Gary Clennan
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Hopefully sensor alignment issues don't become too common with these modifications. I would imagine it could be difficult to get the alignment perfect.

Nov 24, 2015 at 12:29 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Gary Clennan wrote:
Hopefully sensor alignment issues don't become too common with these modifications. I would imagine it could be difficult to get the alignment perfect.

I think, and I will check, that if you send a lens, they will check it before the body goes out, with that lens.

Nov 24, 2015 at 12:42 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

uhoh7 wrote:
I think, and I will check, that if you send a lens, they will check it before the body goes out, with that lens.

Unfortunately for me, the fastest lens that I have is my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM. I have no other f1.4 lenses. Additionally the closer you get to the subject the less the depth of field, so with an f1.4 lens there would be less DOF close up than at infinity. So, the issue will be more evident close up than at distance. But, unless I have screwed up in some way the same issue appears to exist with both my Minolta CLE f2 40mm f2 M-Rokkor lens as well as with my R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2. If I tried my WATE for the same test I may not see quite as much of an issue as the Zeiss 35mm f1.4 lens due to its f4 aperture and the fact the focal lengths are 16mm, 18mm, and 21mm. I would not want to send Kolari Vision my WATE due to its cost/value.

I will still try to run some additional tests but I am trying to think where I have a good horizon. We have lots of hills and small mountains, farm land, and Allentown is the County seat in the my area. But, I don't want to run into Allentown, there are bad sections and I do not know it well enough to try to safely take images. Also, in Allentown I don't even know where I could get high up to take some diagonal images at infinity to check all 4 corners.

Rich

Nov 24, 2015 at 01:11 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Rich, for a close up test I would recommend you do the newspaper test at mfd. You just pin a newspaper to a wall and take a square shot. It's much easier to judge and compare the corners this way.

Nov 24, 2015 at 01:21 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

edwardkaraa wrote:
Rich, for a close up test I would recommend you do the newspaper test at mfd. You just pin a newspaper to a wall and take a square shot. It's much easier to judge and compare the corners this way.

Hi Edward,

Thank you. I was thinking the same thing. I could tape a piece of newspaper to the same island as I have already used for these tests with some gaffers tape so as to leave no adhesive residue on the counter. I think that my wife might prefer that than my putting holes in our walls with pins.

Rich

Nov 24, 2015 at 01:29 PM

naturephoto1
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Ok, I have now run a series of Newspaper tests on my A7rM camera along with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM, my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor, and my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lenses.

First of all I was very fortunate as during the testing as I was removing the camera with my R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lens from the QR of my tripod and Ball head, the camera strap got caught knocking the camera out of my hand. Before it smashed to the kitchen floor or smacked my RRS tripod I was able to re-grab the camera strap. It put a fair amount of strain possibly on the camera strap lug, but I believe everything is OK.

I checked the camera with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM with both my Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 and my Phigment Adapter, my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor lens with my Phigment Adapter, and my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lens with my Novoflex adapter. From my results, and if you wish, I can post some, I do not believe that there is a problem with any of the adapters or the lenses. I believe that overall I saw better results with the newspaper tests than with the Granite Counter Top and the Kitchen Island. As to the results themselves, I can not guarantee that I was totally parallel to the newspaper or the newspaper was totally flat. But, I did note a little to some softening of the images on the upper right corner and possibly the lower right corner at least when wide open. with all of the lenses. I also noticed on at least one of the lenses and at this point I can not remember which or if there were more than one that I was not really quite able to focus on the upper right corner. But I may have been just too close to focus due to the reasons mentioned. The upper right corner did improve dramatically as I stopped the lenses down to f5.6

I do intend to still do more tests particularly with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM lens. I suspect the lens is a keeper.

I have exchanged e-mails with Ilija of Kolari Vision.

Here is his latest response which should be pertinent to anyone that either has or plans to have the modification done to your Sony A7 series cameras:

"Do let me know what you find. To give you an idea of what is potentially the problem, the Sony sensors are all individually aligned by Sony out of the factory, every single sensor has a unique combination of shims of different thicknesses to achieve a parallel sensor. We adjust the sensor position further to account for the thin glass using a set of identical precision shims in all locations to make sure the sensor moves without any bias towards any corner. What we do shouldn't be able to change the plane alignment, but things do happen and our technicians might have missed something. Whatever the cause is, we can find it and realign everything for you."

So after I complete my testing, I am not sure whether I should just live with what may be a small or slight misalignment of the sensor or what I could be seeing may actually be caused by my not quite being parallel to the subject, or to send the camera either alone or with a lens (Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM??) and either my Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 or Phigment adapter back to Kolari Vision.

Rich

Nov 24, 2015 at 06:59 PM

charles.K
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

Hi Rich,
I would send both the A7r mod and ZM 35/1.4 for a complete testing and re alignment if needed. It will always be in the back of your mind if you don't

Hopefully it is a quick turn around.

Nov 24, 2015 at 07:23 PM

hiepphotog
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

naturephoto1 wrote:
Ok, I have now run a series of Newspaper tests on my A7rM camera along with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM, my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor, and my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lenses.

First of all I was very fortunate as during the testing as I was removing the camera with my R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lens from the QR of my tripod and Ball head, the camera strap got caught knocking the camera out of my hand. Before it smashed to the kitchen floor or smacked my RRS tripod I was able to re-grab the camera strap. It put a fair amount of strain possibly on the camera strap lug, but I believe everything is OK.

I checked the camera with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM with both my Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 and my Phigment Adapter, my Minolta CLE MC 40mm f2 M-Rokkor lens with my Phigment Adapter, and my Leica R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2 lens with my Novoflex adapter. From my results, and if you wish, I can post some, I do not believe that there is a problem with any of the adapters or the lenses. I believe that overall I saw better results with the newspaper tests than with the Granite Counter Top and the Kitchen Island. As to the results themselves, I can not guarantee that I was totally parallel to the newspaper or the newspaper was totally flat. But, I did note a little to some softening of the images on the upper right corner and possibly the lower right corner at least when wide open. with all of the lenses. I also noticed on at least one of the lenses and at this point I can not remember which or if there were more than one that I was not really quite able to focus on the upper right corner. But I may have been just too close to focus due to the reasons mentioned. The upper right corner did improve dramatically as I stopped the lenses down to f5.6

I do intend to still do more tests particularly with my new Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM lens. I suspect the lens is a keeper.

I have exchanged e-mails with Ilija of Kolari Vision.

Here is his latest response which should be pertinent to anyone that either has or plans to have the modification done to your Sony A7 series cameras:

"Do let me know what you find. To give you an idea of what is potentially the problem, the Sony sensors are all individually aligned by Sony out of the factory, every single sensor has a unique combination of shims of different thicknesses to achieve a parallel sensor. We adjust the sensor position further to account for the thin glass using a set of identical precision shims in all locations to make sure the sensor moves without any bias towards any corner. What we do shouldn't be able to change the plane alignment, but things do happen and our technicians might have missed something. Whatever the cause is, we can find it and realign everything for you."

So after I complete my testing, I am not sure whether I should just live with what may be a small or slight misalignment of the sensor or what I could be seeing may actually be caused by my not quite being parallel to the subject, or to send the camera either alone or with a lens (Zeiss 35mm f1.4 Distagon ZM??) and either my Hawk's Factory Helicoid V5 or Phigment adapter back to Kolari Vision.

Rich
...Show more →

Rich,

That was a close call

. But I'm glad your camera+lens was safe. Things can happen during testing camera.

Anyway, I would definitely send the camera in for adjustment. It's part of the service to get sharp result. I don't think sending a lens in is necessary. I sent my A7s in recently for the v3 glass and my A7s did have a minor sensor mis-alignment; one corner is very sharp while the other three are softer, especially the opposite one of the sharp one. The camera came back with an even better result all around after an alignment without my own glass. The infinity spot is still the same with all of my lenses as well. Ilija does make sure that the camera reaches infinity with his ZM 50 + adapter combo. If yours was calibrated with the first time, it shouldn't change on the second time.

Nov 24, 2015 at 07:30 PM

JimBuchanan
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

The problem with testing for decentering at short distances is having the test setup truly orthogonal, meaning the camera is perfectly parallel with the plane of focus. At f/1.4, 1 meter focus distance, 1/4 inch difference in distance to the corner would explain a soft corner.

Diagonal infinity at wide open is the best suggestion for corners.

I look forward to the curved plane of focus tests.

Nov 24, 2015 at 09:08 PM

uhoh7
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

JimBuchanan wrote:
The problem with testing for decentering at short distances is having the test setup truly orthogonal, meaning the camera is perfectly parallel with the plane of focus. At f/1.4, 1 meter focus distance, 1/4 inch difference in distance to the corner would explain a soft corner.

Diagonal infinity at wide open is the best suggestion for corners.

I look forward to the curved plane of focus tests.

I agree. I would forget the close range tests and do it outdoors at a true infinity. You will drive yourself crazy otherwise.

You have got the mod and bought the lens for landscapes, why are we shooting furniture?

Nov 24, 2015 at 10:42 PM

hiepphotog
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Possible issues with Zeiss 35mm f1.4ZM or need to shim Hawk's Factory Helicoid

uhoh7 wrote:
I agree. I would forget the close range tests and do it outdoors at a true infinity. You will drive yourself crazy otherwise.

You have got the mod and bought the lens for landscapes, why are we shooting furniture?

Well, it's difficult for Rich to find one in his area, as he explained earlier. I think he did enough testing to conclude that the camera should go back to Kolari.

Nov 24, 2015 at 11:51 PM

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