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Archive 2015 · A7RII hot pixels?

  
 
karmabites
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A7RII hot pixels?


First day of shooting the A7RII and I must say, I'm not impressed with the noise in the shadows at low ISO. Some pixel peeping showed me a little something that I wasn't expecting, a lot of what I believe are hot pixels in the shadows (and please correct me if I am wrong). The image was shot at ISO 100, f/22 (diffraction softened the image a bit), 30 second exposure (not on bulb mode), and on a tripod with OSS off. Lens was the Sony 70-200 f/4. Long exposure NR off. Image was a bit under exposed to test the shadows, plus I didn't have a remote release for a longer "proper" exposure (I could have opened up the aperture a bit but wanted "stars" from the lights at f/22). The zoomed in area is the shore just right of the bridge on the far side of the river.

Any input or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.











Edited on Aug 09, 2015 at 12:49 AM · View previous versions



Aug 09, 2015 at 12:33 AM
Beni
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A7RII hot pixels?


Hot pixels are usually a bright colour. I'm not seeing anything at all in your image other than noise.


Aug 09, 2015 at 12:49 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A7RII hot pixels?


All the multicolor scattered pixels (more red pixels than anything) is noise vs hot pixels?

Here I've increased exposure and shadows...







Aug 09, 2015 at 12:56 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A7RII hot pixels?


Ugh, accidentally deleted my post. That looks about normal for Sony A7-series cameras. I see about the same on my A7s. Unfortunately you really have to use LENR on these bodies even for relatively short exposures.


Aug 09, 2015 at 01:10 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A7RII hot pixels?


Can't Sony map them out in firmware like what Nikon did with the D810, which uses the same Sony sensor as the A7R? Never used long exposure on the D810 and didn't have any problems with hot pixels even at 75 seconds. As a Nikon user coming over to Sony, it's disappointing to say the least.


Aug 09, 2015 at 01:10 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A7RII hot pixels?


yunjo wrote:
Can't Sony map them out in firmware like what Nikon did with the D810, which uses the same Sony sensor as the A7R? Never used long exposure on the D810 and didn't have any problems with hot pixels even at 75 seconds. As a Nikon user coming over to Sony, it's disappointing to say the least.


Those likely aren't stuck pixels - they're just hot pixels from the long exposure. You can tell for sure by forcing a stuck pixel remapping cycle, which previous A7-series models do automatically I think every 30 days. To force the cycle, set the camera's clock a few months forward then power the camera off. When you do you should hear some loudish shutter noises - that's the camera performing a remapping cycle.



Aug 09, 2015 at 01:18 AM
k-h.a.w
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A7RII hot pixels?


snapsy wrote:
Those likely aren't stuck pixels - they're just hot pixels from the long exposure. You can tell for sure by forcing a stuck pixel remapping cycle, which previous A7-series models do automatically I think every 30 days. To force the cycle, set the camera's clock a few months forward then power the camera off. When you do you should hear some loudish shutter noises - that's the camera performing a remapping cycle.


I did that successfully with my NEX-5N.



Aug 09, 2015 at 01:34 AM
waardij
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A7RII hot pixels?


The whole idea of long exposure noise reduction is to deal with this effect. due to the long exposure these patterns occur, also in the black exposure used for the long exposure noise reduction. so the black exposure is used to correct these pixels. It could be that the a7rII is worst in this then some other camera's, I have no idea. to me it looks like all my previous Sony camera's behaved, if perhaps a little better.
If you do use long exposure noise reduction, a 30 seconds exposure will still have a bit more noise, compared to a short exposure, but it will be just noise. above say 10 seconds the shadow noise seems to slowly increase (tried this at 22 centigrade), to become a bit over half a stop worse at 30 seconds. this is also completely normal behavior. some camera's are better at this, some worse. given the large dynamic range of the a7rII, even at 30 seconds it is better than most camera's are when using a short exposure.



Aug 09, 2015 at 03:36 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A7RII hot pixels?


snapsy wrote:
Those likely aren't stuck pixels - they're just hot pixels from the long exposure. You can tell for sure by forcing a stuck pixel remapping cycle, which previous A7-series models do automatically I think every 30 days. To force the cycle, set the camera's clock a few months forward then power the camera off. When you do you should hear some loudish shutter noises - that's the camera performing a remapping cycle.



Although I understand what you're saying, the D810 were not stuck pixel. A stuck pixel theoretically would be on all the time, regardless of length of exposure. Nikon had a fix for it, why doesn't Sony? Here's a link about the D810 thermal noise issue:
D810 thermal noise

and fix:
Nikon D810 thermal noise fix

Edited on Aug 09, 2015 at 09:17 AM · View previous versions



Aug 09, 2015 at 09:07 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A7RII hot pixels?


waardij wrote:
The whole idea of long exposure noise reduction is to deal with this effect. due to the long exposure these patterns occur, also in the black exposure used for the long exposure noise reduction. so the black exposure is used to correct these pixels. It could be that the a7rII is worst in this then some other camera's, I have no idea. to me it looks like all my previous Sony camera's behaved, if perhaps a little better.
If you do use long exposure noise reduction, a 30 seconds exposure will still have a bit more noise, compared to a
...Show more

I think the A7RII is a fantastic camera, but I find it unacceptable that there are so many hot pixels and that users are willing to give Sony a pass and to accept this as a "behavior" of this camera (and previous a7 cameras for that matter), when Nikon managed a fix for this problem in their D810.

The old saying "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" needs to apply. I know it's hard for users to accept the fact that their new camera may have a fault but us owners need to make some noise about it. If users aren't complaining and willing to accept this as a normal behavior, why should Sony bother to fix it? For all the times that users say Sony listens to their users, after spending $3200 on the A7RII, this problem needs to be addressed by Sony.



Aug 09, 2015 at 09:11 AM
millsart
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A7RII hot pixels?


Could always sell the camera (probably can get list price) and go back to a Nikon D810....

Life is too short to use gear you find unacceptable



Aug 09, 2015 at 10:17 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A7RII hot pixels?


+1

And no one is giving Sony a hall pass.



Aug 09, 2015 at 10:24 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A7RII hot pixels?


millsart wrote:
Could always sell the camera (probably can get list price) and go back to a Nikon D810....

Life is too short to use gear you find unacceptable


I understand what you're saying, but my point is Sony users shouldn't have to compromise.



Aug 09, 2015 at 10:25 AM
waardij
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A7RII hot pixels?


Why would you think the D810 is any better in this, it might actually be worse.

https://photographylife.com/nikon-d810-thermal-noise-issue

see the above link. Nikon needs long exposure noise reduction too, just like most (if not all) digital camera's do.



Aug 09, 2015 at 10:55 AM
hiepphotog
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A7RII hot pixels?


yunjo wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but my point is Sony users shouldn't have to compromise.


I'm confused, so Nikon users don't have to compromise? Each maker has their own shortcomings. If this is a big deal for you, then sell the camera. Last time I check, Nikon does not have EVF, full-time liveview, or even a flip screen on the D810, nor it's light and small enough for my use. Not that we give them any pass on this matter (or the compressed RAW), but I think happy A7RII users know the trade-offs and they're fine with that since it's not critical for their works. I believe full-time liveview is one of the reasons why thermal noise on Sony is higher than Nikon; the sensor is constantly on and feeding the EVF/LCD. Even after reading the Advisory note from Nikon, they said that the amount of hot pixels is reduced but would still be there. LENR is advised for such situation.



Aug 09, 2015 at 11:20 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A7RII hot pixels?


The day we think any of these systems is perfect than its really time to hang up your camera straps. Photography has and always will be with any system figuring out ways to work around the issues. This is not a brainless Art. You have to use the knowledge you learn and make use of it. I'm a 40 year Pro been doing digital longer than just about anyone and I learn something every day. That learning and applying work a rounds never ends. Embrace it otherwise it's just a boring Art.if a system does not agree with your style than simply switch. There are no names on the front of these cameras, the sooner you become neutral to that fact the better shooter you will be. Find what works, forget the name.


Aug 09, 2015 at 11:34 AM
karmabites
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · A7RII hot pixels?


hiepphotog wrote:
I'm confused, so Nikon users don't have to compromise? Each maker has their own shortcomings. If this is a big deal for you, then sell the camera. Last time I check, Nikon does not have EVF, full-time liveview, or even a flip screen on the D810, nor it's light and small enough for my use. Not that we give them any pass on this matter (or the compressed RAW), but I think happy A7RII users know the trade-offs and they're fine with that since it's not critical for their works. I believe full-time liveview is one of the reasons why
...Show more

Life is full of compromises and you're correct in asserting the shortcomings of Nikon (which are many, thus my move to Sony). I just think that if thermal noise can be mapped out like what Nikon did, why can't Sony? Not trying to start a Nikon vs Sony flame post, just wondering if there is a fix to this issue that Sony can address.



Aug 09, 2015 at 11:38 AM
hiepphotog
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · A7RII hot pixels?


yunjo wrote:
Life is full of compromises and you're correct in asserting the shortcomings of Nikon (which are many, thus my move to Sony). I just think that if thermal noise can be mapped out like what Nikon did, why can't Sony? Not trying to start a Nikon vs Sony flame post, just wondering if there is a fix to this issue that Sony can address.


The problem with the D810 is that its sensor is just tweaked from the D800/E, yet it has more hot pixels than the previous gen.. Nikon found a way to reduce the amount, not completely eliminate all of them. They don't actually map these pixels out but somehow reduce the thermal impact. The D810 still has hot pixels and so Nikon still advises people to use LENR when necessary. Again, I think Sony has more of these because they implement fulltime live-view. I don't know enough, however, what Sony can do to reduce this thermal noise unless they have a bigger/heavier body to have sufficient cooling.

One way I can think of to reduce this hot pixels deal is to frame the picture. Then you can turn the camera off so that the sensor can cool down and wait for like 10-15 minutes. Then you can turn it on and just shoot. I have done this a few times in the past, and it seemed to help. But I have not done enough testing to be conclusive. You can try and let us know .



Aug 09, 2015 at 12:07 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · A7RII hot pixels?


yunjo wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but my point is Sony users shouldn't have to compromise.


Did you try the hot-pixel remapping technique I described earlier in the thread? Did it make a difference? There's a poster on dpreview that showed a before/after sample (link).



Aug 09, 2015 at 12:43 PM
BrandonSi
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · A7RII hot pixels?


FWIW, Capture One has a slider for this in the noise reduction tool, called 'single-pixel'. It identifies single pixel variation from the surrounding neighbor color values and cancels them out. Might be worth a shot if you run into this frequently.


Aug 09, 2015 at 01:03 PM
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