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Archive 2015 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

  
 
suteetat
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p.14 #1 · p.14 #1 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(











Aug 12, 2015 at 04:44 AM
suteetat
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p.14 #2 · p.14 #2 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


hmmm, on my computer, it is all shown at the same size but in reality MM cropped is about 1200x700 while A7r ii is 1500x900 so if blow up to the same size, A7r ii certainly would have some benefit. However, viewing on my computer at 100%, I think they are very close, I might be convinced either way, may be a slight edge to A7r ii.

I am not sure why at 16mm, there seems to be less vertical distortion on A7r ii though. At 21mm, they are pretty close.

I focus at a building in the center of the frame but it is on a street that all the building including the one of the edge is on. I did take a peak at the edge to make sure it is not badly out of focus but the focus is set at the another building along the same plane for both Sony and Leica.

And just for the heck of it, I throw in CV 15/4.5 iii as well. I think this new version is really optimized for Sony though so the result is not surprising.





Unfortunately it is not a Leica killer eventhough it is optimized for Sony rather than Leica (at least the corner sharpness anyhow)

Edited on Aug 12, 2015 at 04:58 AM · View previous versions



Aug 12, 2015 at 04:53 AM
sootyvrs
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p.14 #3 · p.14 #3 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Sorry if this has already been asked as I've not read all 14 pages...

Has anyone tested out the Voigtlander 12mm Heliar on the A7rII and is the magenta cast still present like in the A7/A7R?



Aug 12, 2015 at 04:56 AM
suteetat
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p.14 #4 · p.14 #4 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


sootyvrs wrote:
Sorry if this has already been asked as I've not read all 14 pages...

Has anyone tested out the Voigtlander 12mm Heliar on the A7rII and is the magenta cast still present like in the A7/A7R?


I posted a picture may be 4-5 pages back for CV 12/5.6. There is no purple cast on the edge at all.




Aug 12, 2015 at 04:59 AM
sootyvrs
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p.14 #5 · p.14 #5 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


suteetat wrote:
I posted a picture may be 4-5 pages back for CV 12/5.6. There is no purple cast on the edge at all.



Thanks found it on page 9... Looking promising



Aug 12, 2015 at 07:30 AM
hiepphotog
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p.14 #6 · p.14 #6 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


suteetat wrote:
hmmm, on my computer, it is all shown at the same size but in reality MM cropped is about 1200x700 while A7r ii is 1500x900 so if blow up to the same size, A7r ii certainly would have some benefit. However, viewing on my computer at 100%, I think they are very close, I might be convinced either way, may be a slight edge to A7r ii.

I am not sure why at 16mm, there seems to be less vertical distortion on A7r ii though. At 21mm, they are pretty close.

I focus at a building in the center of the
...Show more

Thank you for this and very interesting to see on a Leica, it's actually softer. However, I think this CV 15III is a tad sharper than the WATE at 16, at least around f/4. Do you have an f/8 picture? One day I have to rent one to test it against my ZM 15.



Aug 12, 2015 at 10:31 AM
suteetat
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p.14 #7 · p.14 #7 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Here is CV15iii vs WATE 16mm both on A7r ii and MM














Aug 12, 2015 at 10:46 AM
suteetat
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p.14 #8 · p.14 #8 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(












Aug 12, 2015 at 10:49 AM
suteetat
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p.14 #9 · p.14 #9 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Hmmm... to my eyes, CV 15iii is not as sharp as WATE@16mm, also @f8, there is quite a strong CA but not @F4.5. Both shots were taken not even half a minute apart, just enough time to change aperture and recompose and check focus so that is a bit strange. At f4 vs f4.5, they are close but at F8, WATE is clearly sharper. On MM, the difference is much clearer but probably because it is really optimized for Sony.
However, considering the price difference, CV15iii is not shabby at all but with WATE you also get 18 and 21 as well with even better corner sharpness.



Aug 12, 2015 at 11:01 AM
hiepphotog
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p.14 #10 · p.14 #10 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Thank you once again . I'm curious that somehow the 15 picture seems to have a slightly higher magnification (i.e. the buildings look to be bigger). From the above, the WATE is slightly softer at WO with visible field curvature. However, stopping down to f/8, it's better (less vignetting and LCA and sharper).

So people with a modded cam might want the CV15 III .



Aug 12, 2015 at 11:12 AM
hiepphotog
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p.14 #11 · p.14 #11 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


artur5 wrote:
After reading the last page of this thread, a couple of questions come to my mind :
1- AFAIK there has been two different versions of the Kolari mod. The first one used a glass somehow affected by humidity in the long term. Kolari offered a free replacement for possible corroded filters. Afterwards they switched to a new glass type, much more immune to corrosion and also, if I remember correctly, they said that it was thinner than the first version. Maybe 0.7mm vs 0.9mm. ? The question is : which Kolari version of the mod are we seeing in
...Show more

1. The total physical thickness after the mod is about 1.3mm since the clear cover glass is not removed. The A7II certainly has the latest version since Ilija has completely switched since then. So until someone can remove that clear cover glass and put that thin IR/UV filter directly on top of the sensor, I think it's understandable that the modded Sony still lags behind a bit.

2. If you notice the lenses that the modded Sony clearly behaves worse than the M240 are those designed for film: Elmarit 24 ASPH, Biogon 35 with the exception Elmarit 28 ASPH. Optically, these have more light bending with the modded Sony, and it might just cross the threshold right there.

On the other hand, lenses that were designed recently, SEM 18, WATE, and Elmar 24, are very close (if not identical) between the two. In the WATE case, the modded cam is actually a bit better at 16mm.

His Elmar 24 modded WO result might be a mistake since mine was clearly sharper than that. His previous comparison between the modded and stock also shows sharper corner at WO.



Aug 12, 2015 at 11:34 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #12 · p.14 #12 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


hiepphotog wrote:
1. The total physical thickness after the mod is about 1.3mm since the clear cover glass is not removed. The A7II certainly has the latest version since Ilija has completely switched since then. So until someone can remove that clear cover glass and put that thin IR/UV filter directly on top of the sensor, I think it's understandable that the modded Sony still lags behind a bit.

2. If you notice the lenses that the modded Sony clearly behaves worse than the M240 are those designed for film: Elmarit 24 ASPH, Biogon 35 with the exception Elmarit 28 ASPH. Optically, these
...Show more

Hi Elmar 24 shots in which he compared the embedded camera to the modded camera are also a lot sharper on the modded camera than in the comparisons with the M240. I am not sure what is up with that, but the 24 Elmar looks great both in your samples and in his comparison to the unmoved camera, so I suspect that in the comparison to the M240 there is an error somewhere.



Aug 12, 2015 at 11:56 AM
artur5
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p.14 #13 · p.14 #13 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


hiepphotog wrote:
1. The total physical thickness after the mod is about 1.3mm since the clear cover glass is not removed. The A7II certainly has the latest version since Ilija has completely switched since then. So until someone can remove that clear cover glass and put that thin IR/UV filter directly on top of the sensor, I think it's understandable that the modded Sony still lags behind a bit.

2. If you notice the lenses that the modded Sony clearly behaves worse than the M240 are those designed for film: Elmarit 24 ASPH, Biogon 35 with the exception Elmarit 28 ASPH. Optically, these
...Show more
Thanks for the explanation Easy to understand now the sharpness difference between a modded A7 and the Leicas but it's the first time that I've heard about a clear cover glass on the filter stack of the A7x cameras, besides the AA and the IR filter.
Kolari say in their web that the original Sony IR filter is replaced with a super thin version and the AA filter is removed. In the case of the A7r, I assumed that a clear glass is installed by Sony instead of the AA filter and that one is also removed by Kolari.
Please, would you care to elaborate a bit this question ? .I'm in the verge of buying a modded A7II and that cover glass "intruder" might be for me a deal breaker.



Aug 12, 2015 at 01:24 PM
hiepphotog
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p.14 #14 · p.14 #14 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


artur5 wrote:
Thanks for the explanation Easy to understand now the sharpness difference between a modded A7 and the Leicas but it's the first time that I've heard about a clear cover glass on the filter stack of the A7x cameras, besides the AA and the IR filter.
Kolari say in their web that the original Sony IR filter is replaced with a super thin version and the AA filter is removed. In the case of the A7r, I assumed that a clear glass is installed by Sony instead of the AA filter and that one is also removed by Kolari.
Please,
...Show more

I believe most camera makers have this thin sensor cover glass to protect the sensor as a standard step before they stack other types of filters on top (AA, UV/IR, etc.). According to Ilija, the newest filter's thickness is 0.8mm. It replaces two removable filters that are 1.25mm and 0.6mm in thickness. This is about as thin as it could be before it becomes too fragile to have random breakage.

The sensor cover glass is very thin and epoxied onto the ceramic sensor holder. Due to this fact, it's hard to remove it without shattering it. And hence, there is no published info on the thickness of this glass. However, if you read the comments of this post: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter. Vivek said he found a way to remove this cover glass safely and measured it. He said somewhere on GetDPI that it's around 0.5mm. I have not seen any contradictory info so I take his words for it .

Now if Leica know that they need a very thin stack, they would just have the UV/IR filter put straight on top of the sensor during the assembly. After all, they have only a small production run with little variation in sensor stack thickness at any given time, unlike others.

The lesson is if one is to adapt Leica lenses on these Sony, get the most modern Leica lens. The worst among these modern Leica I imagine is the SEM 18 (UWA), and it's as good on the Sony as the Leica. WATE is of course an exception due to its more retrofocus design and more digital friendly.



Aug 12, 2015 at 01:57 PM
artur5
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p.14 #15 · p.14 #15 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Thanks again for your time.. I was planning to get some Zeiss glass -on the line of the ZM25/2,8 or the ZM 35/2, but the Biogons are rather troublesome on digital sensors. Unfortunately for my less-than-fluent pockets, modern Leica lenses are also very expensive and I've had non stellar experiences with a pair of Voigtlanders
I think that my 'A7II on the mod' project will be delayed for a while.



Aug 12, 2015 at 04:19 PM
karlfoto
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p.14 #16 · p.14 #16 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Has anyone done (planning on doing) a test comparing the baits 25 and the leica 24 3.8 elmar on the A7Rii side by side?

Obviously this test would be better on the modded A7Rii, but this test would be useful at this stage.

Thanx



Aug 14, 2015 at 11:37 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #17 · p.14 #17 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


karlfoto wrote:
Has anyone done (planning on doing) a test comparing the baits 25 and the leica 24 3.8 elmar on the A7Rii side by side?

Obviously this test would be better on the modded A7Rii, but this test would be useful at this stage.

Thanx


Actually the test would be best with the 24 Elmar on a modded camera and the 25 Batis on an modified camera. The Batis might suffer on a modded camera as it is designed for the thicker cover glass of an unmodified camera.



Aug 14, 2015 at 11:48 PM
karlfoto
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p.14 #18 · p.14 #18 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


Yes I suppose that would be the best way of testing it.

It would be sad that after the mod one could not use the baits lens to its fullest quality, especially if one decides that you need the af capability at some later stage. However it would still be interesting to see what loss in iq there is using the baits on the modded camera.

Ok has anyone done a mirror test between these two lenses on a modded a7 or a7r? Perhaps this needs to be moved to a new post.

I suppose you spend the money on the mod if you dont want to sell, or loose $$$ on your leica wides, or if you dont have leica wides get the baits and have a slightly bigger form factor. I do like how small the 24 elmar is on the sony though.



Aug 15, 2015 at 11:42 PM
ausmr
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p.14 #19 · p.14 #19 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


I don't have the 25 Batis but I've tested my Elmar 24. It renders beautiful colours but smearing is there in the area 10% around the edges. Not as pronounced as with the A7II but it is still there. Given 42MP now to play with, it's easy to crop the affected areas out

I would also add a note about Zeiss Biogon 35/2 ZM. It's useless as a landscape lens on the A7RII, it's much worse than the Elmar and it's unusable for landscape shots in my opinion. However it's a beautiful lens for street photography and when you shoot fully open — it creates a ton of wonderful smooth bokeh and it is very sharp in the centre at f/2.



Aug 16, 2015 at 02:01 AM
hiepphotog
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p.14 #20 · p.14 #20 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(


karlfoto wrote:
Yes I suppose that would be the best way of testing it.

It would be sad that after the mod one could not use the baits lens to its fullest quality, especially if one decides that you need the af capability at some later stage. However it would still be interesting to see what loss in iq there is using the baits on the modded camera.

Ok has anyone done a mirror test between these two lenses on a modded a7 or a7r? Perhaps this needs to be moved to a new post.

I suppose you spend the money on the mod
...Show more

Or wait for the loxia wide no mod and small size. To me, mirrorless is the future so we will see more full frame mirrorless later. Leica M-mount is going to be more universal on these platform so you don't have to sell the lenses later if you decide to switch. And I don't think you can get a sharper WA lens than the Elmar 24. At least going by the MTF, the Elmar is way sharper than the Batis.



Aug 16, 2015 at 10:22 AM
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