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Archive 2015 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!

  
 
Taylor Sherman
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Eagerly awaiting the results! If it looks good I'll be sending my A7 in; I just got a mk2 to keep me happy while I wait for that I was thinking of doing an IR conversion on the mk1 until I heard about this.


Jan 17, 2015 at 07:50 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


charles.K wrote:
Jordan, yes you are right about the humidity. I did ask the question about warranty, and if I get 12 to 18 months before a new and improved replacement glass I will be very pleased. With the rate of new bodies arriving and improvements on the horizon I don't think this will be an issue.

With my M9/M240 bodies, I never had an issue with Leica with repairing any faults or issues, just the time factor of 2 to 3 months on average.

The M9/M240 always there were dust issues. Some you could clean yourself, but mostly for the serious cleaning
...Show more

Well hell...now you have me thinking about having this done! Can't wait to hear about the benefits with the more problematic rangefinder glass, particularly at infinity.



Jan 17, 2015 at 09:56 PM
mdemeyer
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Lloyd Chambers (www.diglloyd.com) just finished comparative tests on the modified A7r vs. stock. Results confirmed what we have seen... Substantial improvements in sharpness - even on the 50mm APO Summicron. He also confirmed that the color shift issues on wides are not changed, which also confirms our test results.

Michael



Jan 17, 2015 at 10:24 PM
uhoh7
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


JohnJ wrote:
Is dust on the sensor more visible and problematic with thinner glass?


Toothwalker wrote:
Yup.


problematic? hardly. I lasted 7 months with my M9 before I felt I really HAD to clean it. My Nex-5 required cleaning more often.

The A7 sensor cover ruining wide performance: that is problematic.

Dust is the dumbest reason I can imagine to cripple a camera. I can't believe this was a primary reason for the stock cover, but who knows?

But I will observe: when you change a lens with the M9, the sensor is not exposed. The shutter is closed. Not true with the Sony. However, the shutter could be closed with a programed command, if they cared.

@Charles: great to hear you are also doing it Will be fun to contrast A7K vs A7rK

I mulled it over a bit, should I spend 400? I was thinking to just sell the body for 800 and possibly get a second M9 or even MM. Meanwhile I was looking hard at a Viso III and some long glass for the M9, and that was going to be running me over 400, with bellows etc. Maybe not all that practical either.

So I figured, let's redirect those funds to a stronger A7 which is very versatile with SLR glass etc. The Native FE performance drop is meaningless to me, I don't own or crave any. But I can't believe it will hurt the A-mount stuff I own, if as claimed, AF will still work.

Re D-Loyld and the 50 cron: well that would be impressive, because the 50 cron is very good already on the A7r:

50 cron by unoh7, on Flickr

oops i see he was talking about the APO



Jan 17, 2015 at 11:55 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


A lot of RF 50s will look fine on the a7 cameras.... until you compare results from a digital M where some definitely perform better. This bodes well for those taking the chance on the conversion before review results become widely available.

freaklikeme wrote:
So if this works out well, will the only burr left in peoples' saddles be the compressed RAW?


The not so great UI experience? Seems the a7II addresses some of this. Whether it's enough will be subjective, but at least it seems to be in the right direction.

Edited on Jan 18, 2015 at 02:28 AM · View previous versions



Jan 18, 2015 at 01:59 AM
charles.K
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Hi Tariq, I don't really see a downside here. I have always felt that having thinner cover glass gives that certain look to images. If proved to be an excellent modification, this will a great option for those still carrying a lot of M glass.

Hi Charlie, I think your A7 will be back before my A7r, so I think you will be up on centre stage



Jan 18, 2015 at 02:05 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


freaklikeme wrote:
So if this works out well, will the only burr left in peoples' saddles be the compressed RAW?


i should probably know this already, but did they improve the feel of the shutter on the a7II as well as the placement?




Jan 18, 2015 at 02:06 AM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


sebboh wrote:
i should probably know this already, but did they improve the feel of the shutter on the a7II as well as the placement?



Yes! It's back to NEX-7 standards.



Jan 18, 2015 at 02:33 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


freaklikeme wrote:
Yes! It's back to NEX-7 standards.


sweet! now i don't know whether to convert my a7 or order an a7II and wait for that to be convertable.




Jan 18, 2015 at 03:25 AM
artur5
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


If Sony wasn't so protective about the sales of their own FE glass, they could release without much effort a modified A7 tuned for film-era glass, make a bit of sizeable cash and raise a few points the appreciation of the Sony name among RF glass owners. Besides, the small loss in FE lenses profit would be possibly compensated by the sales of that camera
I suppose that the global mentality of big corporations is just a bit too obtuse to see that side of the business which isn't immediately profitable, but might be worthwhile in the long term because it improves the image of the brand, even if only for a small sector of the market.



Jan 18, 2015 at 04:36 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


sebboh wrote:
i should probably know this already, but did they improve the feel of the shutter on the a7II as well as the placement?



The feel of the shutter is great, IMO, on the A7 II.



Jan 18, 2015 at 07:33 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


artur5 wrote:
If Sony wasn't so protective about the sales of their own FE glass, they could release without much effort a modified A7 tuned for film-era glass, make a bit of sizeable cash and raise a few points the appreciation of the Sony name among RF glass owners. Besides, the small loss in FE lenses profit would be possibly compensated by the sales of that camera
I suppose that the global mentality of big corporations is just a bit too obtuse to see that side of the business which isn't immediately profitable, but might be worthwhile in the long term because
...Show more

They can call the model the a7M!




Jan 18, 2015 at 09:31 AM
JimBuchanan
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


sebboh wrote:
... now i don't know whether to convert my a7 or order an a7II and wait for that to be convertable.


The KolariVision mod is certainly good news. I'm in the particular situation of selling my a7R days before reading about this. Given what I got for the camera, I may have sent it in for the mod instead.

I couldn't find mention of this in the articles, but I thought I read that the anti dust shake mechanism was inactivated with the thin filter stack exchange. Or, maybe I remember that from a couple of phone conversations with one of the other IR removal companies a few months back. Anyway, the question is would the a7 II IBIS be retained with this mod?




Jan 18, 2015 at 10:05 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


JimBuchanan wrote:
Anyway, the question is would the a7 II IBIS be retained with this mod?



I would guess that modification of the A7II sensor might be a trickier proposition given the IBIS mechanism. Maybe I missed it...did KolariVision indicate plans to modify the A7II?




Jan 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM
Toothwalker
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


uhoh7 wrote:
problematic? hardly. I lasted 7 months with my M9 before I felt I really HAD to clean it. My Nex-5 required cleaning more often.

The A7 sensor cover ruining wide performance: that is problematic.

Dust is the dumbest reason I can imagine to cripple a camera. I can't believe this was a primary reason for the stock cover, but who knows?


The advantages of a thick cover include a less fragile package, reduced visibility of dust, and the possibility to accommodate better filters.

Concerning the dust, not all users are equally happy to spend time in post processing to remove the spots. The Kolarivision modification of the A7(r) disables the dust reduction system, and simultaneously enhances the visibility of the sensor dust in the images.







Jan 18, 2015 at 12:13 PM
uhoh7
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


artur5 wrote:
If Sony wasn't so protective about the sales of their own FE glass, they could release without much effort a modified A7 tuned for film-era glass, make a bit of sizeable cash and raise a few points the appreciation of the Sony name among RF glass owners. Besides, the small loss in FE lenses profit would be possibly compensated by the sales of that camera
I suppose that the global mentality of big corporations is just a bit too obtuse to see that side of the business which isn't immediately profitable, but might be worthwhile in the long term because
...Show more

+1

If you note the anguished quest for wide performance, I think it's more than a small sector, and by influence, very vocal.

But I imagine there is panic in the air, with so many parts of Sony not profitable. This makes the obvious obscure. The whole A7 project was supposedly twice cancelled in route.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I would guess that modification of the A7II sensor might be a trickier proposition given the IBIS mechanism. Maybe I missed it...did KolariVision indicate plans to modify the A7II?

I doubt they have seen one. What turns me off is the size and weight is marching steadily in DSLR direction,

" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">as Kai & co hysterically point out in this vid
, though the non-4k vid IBIS is impressive, if beside the point.

No doubt, as Derek alludes to, a reasonable shutter would be welcome. Do you put 400 in a 850USD A7 body? Well my rationale is it will add about 300 to the resale value, if it's clear things are working well. And it will be alot of fun to see what happens for ourselves, as opposed to speculative tears.

charles.K wrote:
Hi Tariq, I don't really see a downside here. I have always felt that having thinner cover glass gives that certain look to images. If proved to be an excellent modification, this will a great option for those still carrying a lot of M glass.

Hi Charlie, I think your A7 will be back before my A7r, so I think you will be up on centre stage


I can only pray all goes as according to plan Roger and lloyd seem to have the "R" and I really wonder/hope the plain 7 will be better. It has to be, really, since in my testing the smearing was more obvious, and the colorshift too--all those teeny weany pixels!

Toothwalker wrote:
The advantages of a thick cover include a less fragile package, reduced visibility of dust, and the possibility to accommodate better filters.

Concerning the dust, not all users are equally happy to spend time in post processing to remove the spots. The Kolarivision modification of the A7(r) disables the dust reduction system, and simultaneously enhances the visibility of the sensor dust in the images.

I appreciate the argument put clearly. I just think it's been a catastrophe in practice.

Wait, what am I saying? Without the think sensor stack, I would not own a M9!!!! That's really true.

OK, crazy Sony, Thank You





Jan 18, 2015 at 12:59 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Steve Spencer wrote:
The feel of the shutter is great, IMO, on the A7 II.


It is good, but not Nex-7 good. The Nex-7 still has a definite "click", the A7ii does not.



Jan 18, 2015 at 01:32 PM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Taylor Sherman wrote:
It is good, but not Nex-7 good. The Nex-7 still has a definite "click", the A7ii does not.


I can't tell the difference between them using them side by side.



Jan 18, 2015 at 02:17 PM
charles.K
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


Lloyd has further detailed his results http://diglloyd.com/index.html , comparing with the stock A7r and modified A7r, comparing with actual examples with the 18 SEM and 24 Elmar, at f/3.8, 5.6, 8 and 11. The results are very compelling in the difference between the stock and modified version of the A7r. There is no difference in the effect of vignetting or magenta cast. But this is very easily corrected in PP'ing with a simple step in LR, by taking WB disc shots with the lens at difference f stops, and keeping this shots on file. This is no different than with M9 prior to the later firmware corrections.

I must admit I had to subscribe to see the results but it was well worthwhile. I am very glad now that I have sent my A7r to Kolari Vision I really did not expect to see such an improvement, but the 18 SEM and 24 Elmar are definitive options with the A7r MOD. I am sorry I just sold my 21 SEM

Edited on Jan 19, 2015 at 12:36 AM · View previous versions



Jan 19, 2015 at 12:23 AM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all!


No change in the color cast though (I didn't subscribe to read that- it's posted publicly) so profiling will still be a regular thing.


Jan 19, 2015 at 12:35 AM
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