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Archive 2014 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

kevindar
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Whumber started a fantastic thread here
ML thread
which intrigued my interest in trying ML again. In the thread I made the hypothesis that bracketing should still yield superior results, and any pushing of shadows does lead to additional noise, and in case of ML some possible loss of detail.
So this morning I did an experiment
Setup. Canon 5d Mrk III, latest firmware and ML installed. Rokinon 14 2.8 at f11. tripod mount remote release, live view.
The base exposure is 1/25 seconds, and is for highlights outside.
I additionally did an ML dual exposure at 3 stops (100-800) one at 4 stops (100-1600), and a bracketed shot of +3 EC at iso 100 (0.3 seconds)

I then exported the two bracketed shots in to Photoshop HDR PRO, combining them in to a 32 bit TIF file, and imported it back to LR.

So now, I have 4 files to play with. Original CR2 file, the bracketted exposure fusion file, dual iso 100-800, and dual iso 100-1600

I applied the following adjustments to all 4 files in LR
Exp +2
Shadows +100
Highlights -50
No NR other than defaul 25 chroma. Default sharpening

the dual iso shots has picked a very different WB for some reason, which I made the same.

So here is the scene untouched cr2 file

flickr-3158 by kevindar, on Flickr

Here is the final from all 4. this particular one is the bracketed exposure

flickr-2 by kevindar, on Flickr

Here are 3 100 % crops, highlights, deep shadows and less deep shadows
In each the left panel is dual iso, with 100-1600 on top, 100-800 bottom. on the right, the bracketted exposure is top, and the original file pushed is bottom

highlights

highlights by kevindar, on Flickr

Mid to shadows

rug by kevindar, on Flickr

Dark shadows

plaque by kevindar, on Flickr

Edited on Sep 12, 2014 at 09:55 PM · View previous versions

Sep 07, 2014 at 11:12 AM

kevindar
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Findings:
the dual iso is very good at suppresing noise. you donot get the ugly noise and banding that you get pushing a file so much in the shadows

In the highlights, it seems like you pay a slight bit of penalty, as the image is not quite as crips comparing the cr2 file with either of the dual iso file. but not much.

The bracketted exposure shot is superior to both, and by a good margin. it far and away produces the cleanest files with most detail.

Of course bracketing is not always practical. If you are shooting handheld, its a lot tricker. Also if things are moving, in the highlight or shadows, bracketting can screw things up

But even if you are shooting with an exmor sensor, and you are looking for the ultimate image quality, and the scene allows it, you are still better off bracketing your exposure than pushing your shadows.

The ML is however very nice, if you are willing to sacrifice a touch of detail in your highlights and shadows. it seems to yield better results than just pushing.

Edited on Sep 07, 2014 at 03:24 PM · View previous versions

Sep 07, 2014 at 11:21 AM

dgdg
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Avoiding blending multiple exposures, which can be difficult, is a nice option to have.
Having rented the a7r, it is nice to push the shadows in one image instead of blending.

David

Sep 07, 2014 at 12:36 PM

kevindar
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

David, it is without a doubt better to at least have the option of pushing shadows the way you can in an exmor sensor. It is also additionally nice to have the option of shooting 36 MP.
However,
1. If the scene is amenable to it (i.e no moving part) and you have a large DR in the scene, and using a tirpod you are better off bracketting, even if you have an exmor sensor. You will end up with cleaner, more detailed files.
2. The magic lantern dual ISO can be used successfully to reduce noise.

Now having a High DR sensor, like the exmor is entirely different from exposure blending. What I did here is simply take 2 shots (I have my custom function set to 2 shots, 0, and +3 bracket, I expose for highlights on 0), and automerging them in to a 32 bit fused file. yes, it does involve doing a couple of clicks, though I can likely just set up an action in bridge that would do the whole thing for me. I then have a file which in terms of DR is better than anything that the exmor produces, and I process it the same in LR, as I would a nikon or sony file

Sep 07, 2014 at 01:06 PM

kezeka
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

kevindar wrote:
David, it is without a doubt better to at least have the option of pushing shadows the way you can in an exmor sensor. It is also additionally nice to have the option of shooting 36 MP.
However,
1. If the scene is amenable to it (i.e no moving part) and you have a large DR in the scene, and using a tirpod you are better off bracketting, even if you have an exmor sensor. You will end up with cleaner, more detailed files.
2. The magic lantern dual ISO can be used successfully to reduce noise.

Now having a High DR...Show more →

This is exactly why bracketting is way too huge a PITA to be useful to the overwhelming majority of photographers.

I never EVER have
- A perfectly still scene
- A tripod with me

Which makes bracketting pointless.

Sep 07, 2014 at 05:05 PM

kevindar
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

In which case, the ML dual ISO is a great improvement and worth using. It even allows you to take two images, one in dual iso, and one normal one.

Sep 07, 2014 at 05:38 PM

dgdg
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

kevindar wrote:
Now having a High DR sensor, like the exmor is entirely different from exposure blending. What I did here is simply take 2 shots (I have my custom function set to 2 shots, 0, and +3 bracket, I expose for highlights on 0), and automerging them in to a 32 bit fused file. yes, it does involve doing a couple of clicks, though I can likely just set up an action in bridge that would do the whole thing for me. I then have a file which in terms of DR is better than anything that the exmor produces, and...Show more →

thanks for all your tips here.

Back up a sec...
You have two images - 0 and +3 on which body, with/without dual iso?
Then how are you automerging them? (blending images is generally manual although blendIf comes pretty close to automatic) Looks like you used HDR pro? Looks like it worked very well for the architectural scene with some extreme ranges, but for landscapes....?

David

Sep 07, 2014 at 06:14 PM

kevindar
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

David, body is 5d3. for the purpose of the bracketed shot, I used the 0 without dual iso.
In photoshop, you can choose two raw images (or in LR) and use the merge to photoshop hdr pro function. once it opens, you just on the drop down menu choose 32bit, and it will create a 32bit TIF file for you that has a giant DR. your monitor of course can not show more than 10 or 11 stops of DR at any one time. However, now your exposure slider in LR goes to +10 and -10 instead of 5 and -5. You have far more freedom in properly editing the image. If you have not used it, you should really try it.

Sep 07, 2014 at 07:01 PM

kezeka
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

dgdg wrote:
thanks for all your tips here.

Back up a sec...
You have two images - 0 and +3 on which body, with/without dual iso?
Then how are you automerging them? (blending images is generally manual although blendIf comes pretty close to automatic) Looks like you used HDR pro? Looks like it worked very well for the architectural scene with some extreme ranges, but for landscapes....?

David

The problem with bracketed landscapes in my experience is that if you have any plant life in them, you end up having to clean up the overlapping leaves and branches all over the scene. For that reason alone, I avoid bracketed shots like the plague.

Sep 07, 2014 at 10:26 PM

kevindar
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Here it is in actual use.
5d3, 16-35 f4 IS, 16mm, 1/30-1/100 sec, iso 200/1600 dual iso. Hand held
11 shot vertical. there was a bunch of room on top and bottom that I cropped. final file size 7622x5384, 41MP

another gorgeous sunset at Pointe Vicente by kevindar, on Flickr

Sep 08, 2014 at 12:10 AM

kezeka
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

How do you like the detail in the full size version at 100%? Think it will print well despite a little resolution loss in your highs and lows? Just curious, haven't had a chance to get out and actually take some sunset photos with dual ISO yet.

Sep 08, 2014 at 12:17 AM

Matt Grum
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

kezeka wrote:
This is exactly why bracketting is way too huge a PITA to be useful to the overwhelming majority of photographers.

I never EVER have
- A perfectly still scene
- A tripod with me

Which makes bracketting pointless.

I took a 1D mkIV round Italy in 2011, lighting was generally very harsh so to work around the limited DR of the 1D4 I bracketed everything.

I set the camera up to take 2 bracketed shots and set the drive mode to high. That way it fired off 2 shots very quickly, in fact it sounded like a single shutter actuation. Doing so I was able to shoot handheld, moving subjects and still have the high dynamic range totally covered.

With moving subjects you can always blend by hand in Photoshop for a very natural look. It's a bit more work but the results are worth it.

Sep 08, 2014 at 06:02 AM

dgdg
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

you've got me thinking I should try bricking my camera soon. lol
I would like to have the dual iso as an option for the 5D3 since I plan to only rent the A7R for large trips. I do have the A7 for daily use since it is a bit more practical for family life, and may start just using this more often for landscapes with the metabones.
I would like to avoid having an intervalometer dangling off the 5D3 for nightscapes, which is a small benefit of ML in addition.

David

Sep 08, 2014 at 06:56 AM

kevindar
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

well, this was shot hand held, so I am not sure if it is absolutely optimized for the very best detail and resolution. the highlights are primarily clouds and sun, so I won be seeing any loss in resolution there anyways. I will post 100% crops.

However the short answer is, I am perfectly happy with sharpness and detail, and I think it will easily print 30 inches wide.

100% crop, this is the 1/30 sec exposure. but the lens had IS

100% crop by kevindar, on Flickr

Sep 08, 2014 at 08:10 AM

kevindar
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

David, I think the chances of you bricking it from ML is lass than you dropping your camera and breaking it (a lot less). the video features and Dot tune I have used a lot in the past. It has so many nice photo features with the dual iso, a far more advanced bracketting, itnervelometer, etc, that I think its really a worthwhile addition.

Here is a picture I had someone take for us of the family last night. exposure .5, shadows 80 and then pushed exposure another 0.57 on us, file is still very clean

flickr--3 by kevindar, on Flickr

Sep 08, 2014 at 08:28 AM

mttran
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Thank you Whumer and Kelvin for the hard work. I will keep this ML features in-minds when 5d2/5d3 to be under 1K/1.5K or lower.

Sep 08, 2014 at 10:44 AM

kevindar
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

I am glad you found it useful.

Sep 09, 2014 at 12:52 AM

dgdg
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Once I have a moment think I'll try it. Does ML come with those awesome clouds built in, or do I have to enable some module first?

David

Sep 09, 2014 at 06:51 AM

Larate
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

I did exposure bracketing many times. Actually, I was so distrustful regarding the DR caps of my bodies that I relied on bracketing even for the slightest contrasted scene! Finally I've succeeded in curing myself and now I only shoot 3 or 4 photos of the scene using the same exposure. Far easier to handle than bracketing (IMO, especially when the over-exposed shots are at dangerous speeds when tripod is not allowed). And the capabilities of shadows recovery is amazing, even at low ISO.

Although it's better and safer with a tripod, I'd say it's not so hard to keep the same framing while hand holding (not exactly the exact right identically same!, but enough so that photo alignment at P/T stage is possible). Of course, with "fast" moving object, it is harder. But fast is a relative notion (depends on the subject distance, the subject magnification, the output size, the camera burst speed - 1Dx is a pleasure for that -, and how old is the captain of the flying boat).

To conclude, I've already relied on the blending of the same shots (more precisely several shots of the same scene with the same exposure) at high Iso in order to reduce the noise (I remember I could expect gain of a bit more than 1 stop at 3200 ISO with my 7D). Recently, I extended the concept to high contrasted scenes at low Iso (100 to 400) and I was very pleased with the results (first surprised, then "wow-ed"!)

As a hint : with the 1Dx, 2 to 3 shots is enough at roughly 100 to 800 Iso. The higher the Iso, the greater the number of shots. At 6400 Iso, I had excellent results with 5 or 6 shots (at 10K Iso, the results were very good too). With the 5D3, I have to add 1 shot and I have to lower the ISO bar (for example, I think I don't have much gain at 6400 Iso).
Last but not the least : I've noticed it's safer to add 2 to 3 shots more to the sequence because among them, some might be bad (bad framing when hand holding, or focus not on the same point, etc). Thus I'm able to choose the best ones at P/T stage.

HTH

Sep 10, 2014 at 06:29 AM

NCAndy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5D3, ML Dual ISO, Exposure bracketting, and noise and detail

Larate wrote:
I did exposure bracketing many times. Actually, I was so distrustful regarding the DR caps of my bodies that I relied on bracketing even for the slightest contrasted scene! Finally I've succeeded in curing myself and now I only shoot 3 or 4 photos of the scene using the same exposure. Far easier to handle than bracketing (IMO, especially when the over-exposed shots are at dangerous speeds when tripod is not allowed). And the capabilities of shadows recovery is amazing, even at low ISO.

Although it's better and safer with a tripod, I'd say it's not so hard to keep...Show more →

Sorry if I'm dense, but I don't understand what it is you're doing. You take several shots at the same exposure and then what? What is the P/T stage? How you you blend those multiple exposures so that it gives a lower noise image that the shadows have no noise when pushed?

Sep 10, 2014 at 01:51 PM

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