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Archive 2014 · A PP challenge for you.

ben egbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A PP challenge for you.

I have noticed that when you get alpenglow on the mountain peaks, the foreground is dark, and when the foreground is lit, the alpenglow is gone. Look at my first two images which are SOOC for play. The first has alpenglow and dark aspen trees. The second has a wonderful glow on the trees but the mountains are boring.

I recently saw a shot from the exact place at the same time of year at the Landscape forum. You can view it here.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1299030

He seemed to get it all in one shot. Great alpenglow and pretty nice trees although not quite as good as when directly lit by the sun. What I immediately noticed was that he had a much darker image than mine. Even though my sooc is not overexposed, it needs to be at least another stop and a half underexposed to get the same drama, then pull the trees back up. He also seems to be using a gradient filter in post top to middle and bottom to middle.

So I tried this with two images. One with just the peaks in alpenglow and another with most of the mountain bathed in light. I noted the earlier image was much redder than the later, not sure which I like best. I also note that I can’t get the same color hue as Matt, his seems to be a different hue but I did not try hard because I like my hues ok.

In my attempts I worked primarily with getting contrast exposure and the gradients, and did almost nothing with hue saturation. Darkening the image seems to provide enough saturation. My results are lighter and of course the composition is different and his is cropped more pano.

My challenge/question is. How would you do this and what did you do.

sooc peaks in alpinglow

trees glowing, alpinglow gone.

processed for drama with early alpinglow

processed for drama late stages of alpinglow

Jun 07, 2014 at 09:27 AM

Oregon Gal 5-time assignment winner

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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A PP challenge for you.

Ben,

In tough lighting conditions sometimes you need at least 2 exposures, one for the foreground and another for the background. A tripod is a must for blending images but I don't believe image #1 needs blending. The image can be easily worked on as shot.

I didn't have a lot of time but I did a quick re-work of #1. I used Tony Kuyper's Luminosity masks and did some minor changes to the hue saturation, master saturation +5, hue -1. I changed the tones of the yellow to -4 for hue and +12 in Lightness. I painted out the effect of the yellow change on the trees as I felt they are fine. I used Exposure and changed the offset to +0.0068 which lightened the trees slightly and a minor levels adjustment.

Jun 07, 2014 at 12:48 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A PP challenge for you.

Thanks Oregon Gal. I should have mentioned that the trees come in fairly bright as exposed but leave the mountain washed out, they mostly get dark when the exposure is dropped closer to Matts. The lesson I got from Matts post was that alpinglow really needs under exposure, a lot more than expected.

I always shoot from a tripod and bracket my shots, but in the past so long as I am not overexposed I don't go too far in that direction. Lesson learned, in the future I will go deeper into underexposure.

I also used a 3 stop soft ND grad here. Not an easy target for ND grads, I usually line the edge with the shadow on the mountain. This is probably why you can work this from a single image.

This is a 2011 shot and I have learned a lot about blending in the interim so that I would probably use more brackets and no filter then blend them.

You got a very nice look for the trees, but I am looking for a lot more drama on the rest of the scene, something closer to Matts look.

But I am open to other opinions in that regard as well.

I did not put up an SOOC for my second drama version because it was not the same sort of light as Matts. I can put that one up if anyone wants.

Jun 07, 2014 at 01:11 PM

Oregon Gal 5-time assignment winner

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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A PP challenge for you.

Not a problem Ben. I did another more dramatic version but the image can be manipulated in a myriad of ways to suit your vision. There is no right or wrong. Beautiful image and process the image the way you see fit. I'm sure other forum members will have alternate suggestions which may make it easier to reach your vision for this image.

Jun 07, 2014 at 02:22 PM

Eyeball
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A PP challenge for you.

Here's my shot using your first posted image.
Darkening and increased contrast of mountains, sky, and reflection in luminosity mode to hold back the saturation increase.
Select>Color range on the bright yellow in the trees and then a brightness/contrast boost with curves.
Some local contrast boost using USM.
A little sharpening with Focus Magic.
A little over-all saturation increase.
A little saturation pull-back in the grass.
A little extra dodging in the trees.
A slight vignette.
I was a little sloppy with the masking so there are probably some halos in there.

I feel that if you boost the warm saturation, the clarity, and the sharpening of the mountains too much, it starts to bring the mountains forward and you lose some of the dimensionality of the image. It's a subjective thing though and I know you like strong colors, Ben.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12145446/LScape.jpg

Jun 07, 2014 at 02:30 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A PP challenge for you.

Oregon Gal wrote:
Not a problem Ben. I did another more dramatic version but the image can be manipulated in a myriad of ways to suit your vision. There is no right or wrong. Beautiful image and process the image the way you see fit. I'm sure other forum members will have alternate suggestions which may make it easier to reach your vision for this image.

Thanks for the redo, this is very nice.

I thought this exercise would be great for the landscapers here, both for the way to take alpinglow shots and how to process them.

Obviously getting closer to the desired (as opposed to expose to the right) would make this easier. I have a three image blend technique that makes seamless blends if there is no subject motion. I shoot burst mode brackets to reduce subject motion.

By the way, the sky banding you got is the product of working with a small file, but I had to be careful at full size as well. This is one reason why starting with a darker image and blending in the light from a lighter image would be good for Canon shooters. This was a 1DS-mk3, I believe I have more latitude with the 5d3 I now use.

Edited on Jun 07, 2014 at 05:48 PM · View previous versions

Jun 07, 2014 at 03:24 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A PP challenge for you.

Eyeball wrote:
Here's my shot using your first posted image.
Darkening and increased contrast of mountains, sky, and reflection in luminosity mode to hold back the saturation increase.
Select>Color range on the bright yellow in the trees and then a brightness/contrast boost with curves.
Some local contrast boost using USM.
A little sharpening with Focus Magic.
A little over-all saturation increase.
A little saturation pull-back in the grass.
A little extra dodging in the trees.
A slight vignette.
I was a little sloppy with the masking so there are probably some halos in there.

I feel that if you boost the warm saturation, the clarity, and the sharpening of the mountains too...Show more →

This is a very nice job, you have gotten great drama in the mountain and reflection while not making it so dark. Instead of getting drama by darkening and then pulling back the trees, you added drama to the mountains without so much overall darkening.

Jun 07, 2014 at 03:27 PM

RustyBug

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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A PP challenge for you.

ben egbert wrote:
He seemed to get it all in one shot.

Matt Anderson wrote:
all my shots are "photoshopped" to some degree. Or I prefer to say post processed or digitally developed. Un Processed RAW files are simply flat. I did a fair amount of dodging to the tones in this image, especially the dark trees.

Not sure if Matt was referring to his OP image, or his last image in the thread, but it really doesn't matter. The point is that it is the PP to account for the delta at light in different portions of the image/scene.

Took a stab at Ben's first one (single image). Could use some better work @ sharpening artifacts/banding/hue (small jpg) for sky than I did, but you get the gist.

Just depends how much drama (and effort) you want to put to it @ S&P to taste.

Jun 07, 2014 at 09:34 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A PP challenge for you.

Thanks Kent, that's the look I am after.

I am pretty sure my current gear would do a better job, my 5d3 and 24-70m2 have more reliable focus, and less sky noise and less prone to banding than the 1ds3.

I have been to this spot 1/2 dozen times since 2004, and many other places with alpine glow. I have almost given up on the first red because it is so often lacking in contrast, now I see how much it needs to be underexposed. I will be watching for this in the future.

On this particular day, I was first on the scene and doing dark sky (milky way) shots when the next car arrived and spoiled that effort. By the time I took the alpine glow shot 20-30 people were lined up along the bank and would have been in the shot that Matt took which is why I did not include that great tree he had on the right. But I knew the aspen show was still coming so when most of them left, I moved to the place in my second image.

Kent, would you crop this? I usually go for a 16x9 aspect and remove sky when they are blank. I think I need all the bottom to get that sweep of the water. But in this case, I think I need the dark upper sky to balance it.

Jun 08, 2014 at 08:09 AM

RustyBug

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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A PP challenge for you.

Thanks Ben,

Two words ... "Channel Masks"

As many around here have heard me espouse @ "warm direct light" vs. "cool indirect light" @ sun vs. sky ... this was a very clear example of how you had different lighting sources illuminating different portions of your scene.

The warm direct sunlight is striking the mountain peaks, while the cool indirect skylight is illuminating the foreground.

By looking at the red channel, we can see where warm light is striking/reflecting most. By looking at the blue channel, we can see where the cool light is falling/reflecting most.

These two pieces of information are valuable, but even more so, the channels provide a built in mask to segregate the areas of our image. I find this to be VASTLY SUPERIOR to doing brush work when working in mixed lighting. From there, it is a matter of doing all the things to S&P to taste @ balancing things to deliver your desired message.

As to the crop ... I might take some off the bottom (about 50-55 pixels @ this size) nearly flush with the horizontal line of the LRC bank grass.

Edited on Jun 08, 2014 at 09:02 AM · View previous versions

Jun 08, 2014 at 08:41 AM

ben egbert
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A PP challenge for you.

RustyBug wrote:
Thanks Ben,

Two words ... "Channel Masks"

As many around here have heard me espouse @ "warm direct light" vs. "cool indirect light" @ sun vs. sky ... this was a very clear example of how you had different lighting sources illuminating different portions of your scene.

The warm direct sunlight is striking the mountain peaks, while the cool indirect skylight is illuminating the foreground.

By looking at the red channel, we can see where warm light is striking most. By looking at the blue channel, we can see where the cool light is falling most.

These two pieces of information are valuable, but even...Show more →

Thanks Kent, I did no brush work on mine, just some gradient masks and some selective color. But using channel masks is a great idea and I am going to try it, but in a few minutes I am heading out for a hike and more pix, so when I get back.

Jun 08, 2014 at 08:47 AM

RustyBug

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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A PP challenge for you.

Brush, gradient, channel ... all viable. For complex/intricate/uneven separations, I look to see if I can find a channel mask to do the heavy lifting first if there exists a color separation component to be harnessed.

Jun 08, 2014 at 09:05 AM

Eyeball
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A PP challenge for you.

I wouldn't be too down on your shot, Ben. I think it's pretty great and I think the first one you posted, while not the raw, seems to me to be exposed almost perfectly. As long as you aren't clipping the highlights, better to bring as much of the shadow detail up out of the noise base as you can.

I think it's largely a matter of where you want to take it in post. Here is a darker, more vibrant version of what I did before (working off the previous Jpeg so it's starting to get a little worn). I just pulled the exposure down and did some selective tone and saturation adjustments. The trees seem like an important secondary element to me so I was trying to keep some tree detail and color and not black-out the shadows but still give the starring role to the glowing mountain tops.

The image you linked, with all that purple and magenta, starts to look a little "Kinkade-y" to me and even the magenta/purple that starts to become visible in the lit/shadow transition of the mountains in this darkened version bothers me a little. Of course I wasn't there so maybe it does look like that or if you want it to have a bit more "fantasy" vibe, that's OK, too.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12145446/LScape2.jpg

Jun 08, 2014 at 09:24 AM

RustyBug

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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A PP challenge for you.

+1 @ the linked image being artificially cast/saturated toward the magentas. I think Ben's capture offers a more realistic presentation of the changing colors (including the purple mountain majesties portions) that occur as the balance of direct warm and indirect cool shift with rotation/orientation.

I can see the cyan, red, magenta, green, blue & yellow present in the image ... it's full spectrum, spherical prismatic dispersed in conjunction with natural gobos. Imo, the image isn't a picture of the mountains, rather it is a picture of the glorious light and the scene is the canvas upon which it is being splayed.

Being aware of the variety of color occurring in this light is key for me. Presenting all the colors that are present is much more interesting than the hyper sat of the linked one. We often chase rainbows presented in the sky, but here we have one presented terrestrially with the nuance of transition. Anyone can ratchet up the sat slider, but balancing a terrestrial rainbow is a different matter ... and such a wondrous canvas to do so.

Jun 08, 2014 at 10:53 AM

Healey
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A PP challenge for you.

Just for fun, my turn.

Used the aspen lit version and added magenta to the mountains. Think I went to far. But Now I am color blind from playing with the image. Might look at it again later.

Oh... variations on curves using blue channel mask as basis for custom masks.

Jun 08, 2014 at 11:53 AM

ben egbert
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A PP challenge for you.

Eyeball wrote:
I wouldn't be too down on your shot, Ben. I think it's pretty great and I think the first one you posted, while not the raw, seems to me to be exposed almost perfectly. As long as you aren't clipping the highlights, better to bring as much of the shadow detail up out of the noise base as you can.

I think it's largely a matter of where you want to take it in post. Here is a darker, more vibrant version of what I did before (working off the previous Jpeg so it's starting to get a little worn). I...Show more →

I like it, this is the sort of drama I was seeking here. I need to return here, but I will probably wait until Canon releases its next Nikon/Sony beater.

I will need to retake all my favorites then.

Jun 08, 2014 at 12:12 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · A PP challenge for you.

Healey wrote:
Just for fun, my turn.

Used the aspen lit version and added magenta to the mountains. Think I went to far. But Now I am color blind from playing with the image. Might look at it again later.

Oh... variations on curves using blue channel mask as basis for custom masks.

I have what I think is a better version (composition) of this shot someplace, Good job on the mountains here.

Found it, here ya go. You have to wait until everyone leaves to get this shot.

Old processing.

Jun 08, 2014 at 12:17 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · A PP challenge for you.

For Kent:

I tried the red channel. But I am not great at channel masking so I applied image on a new layer using the red channel in multiply. I got similar results. I suspect you made a real mask. I once knew how to use that technique but I don't use it enough to remember. But I am going back now because some parts are starting to come back.

Jun 08, 2014 at 03:02 PM

geneva
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · A PP challenge for you.

wow where is it?!

Jun 08, 2014 at 06:20 PM

ben egbert
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · A PP challenge for you.

geneva wrote:
wow where is it?!

This is Schwabacher Landing in Grand Teton NP, one of the major Grand Teton Icons, I heard they have the road closed this summer. In fall around the last week of September until the end of the first week of October this place is always packed with photographers.

Jun 08, 2014 at 07:43 PM


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