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Archive 2013 · Sony A7 raw files

waterden
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony A7 raw files

I am starting yet another a7 thread here to highlight a most interesting piece of work from Bart of Leica BOSS which examines the processing of raw files from the a7. What becomes clear is that these cameras overlay some image processing on the raw files themselves. They are not unadulterated. In the video Bart uses the Sony raw converter software to unpick the changes applied by the camera (most egregiously in noise reduction but also in DR processing) to extract a pure TIFF file for processing in Lightroom. According to his comments at the bottom of the link much of the in-camera processing of the raw files cannot be undone by switching off NR, etc, and since Sony is pretty proprietary about its files the ability of external software like ACR to unpick this manipulation depends to a great deal on guesswork and experience. The only guaranteed way is to use asony's own software. apparently this behaviour is not unique to the A7 cameras but applies in other Sony models as well. To be candid, I am quite shocked by this - others may be less so - and the implication is that the files coming out of this camera may be a lot better than people realise. Sony clearly has its wn reasons for hobbling the files in this way and it s presumably due to making life easier for the target market but it is of no help to serious photographers!

http://www.leica-boss.com/2013/10/sony-alpha-a7-example-raw-files-in-depth/

Nov 22, 2013 at 08:31 AM

Guari
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony A7 raw files

...

Edited on Nov 23, 2013 at 01:58 PM · View previous versions

Nov 22, 2013 at 08:47 AM

mawz
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony A7 raw files

First off, if you open a Sony RAW file in the Sony RAW converter, all the JPEG settings are applied by default (same thing happens when opening most manufacturers RAW files in their supplied converters). If you open the same RAW file in a converter that doesn't obey the JPEG settings metadata, you get that converter's default rendering (which may be flat, auto-adjusted or a user-selected profile/preset). You never get the raw data presented to you, well unless you are one of the 5 guys out there using MATLAB as your RAW converter of choice. Note that much of what he's 'turning off' in the Sony RAW converter is never actually applied to the RAW file via other converters (if you can turn it off in Sony's RAW converter, it lives in Metadata rather than being baked into the RAW file, otherwise it couldn't be undone. Non-Sony RAW converters ignore that metadata for the most part and therefore never apply those adjustments. Lens corrections are the semi-exception).

Second, RAW files aren't RAW, they're simply bayer mosaic files which haven't been converted to RGB. There's lots of things happening to the raw sensor data before it gets written to the card (for starters, the raw data is analog). Sony and Leica are both notorious for doing a little more processing than some other makers, Sony due to the use of 14 bit data internally but 12 bit RAW formats, Leica via applying lens corrections to the RAW file.

Nov 22, 2013 at 09:01 AM

carstenw
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony A7 raw files

To get the most out of the files with the least effort, we simply wait for Phase One, Adobe, et al, to tune their camera profiles to the camera. This could take two to three months, but I guess the first good profiles will come soon.

Nov 22, 2013 at 11:26 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony A7 raw files

The biggest possible issue I believe I'm seeing with current Sony raws regards what looks like a tendency towards posterization with subtle tonal transitions such as seen in a sky. This is more noticeable when a Sony raw file is pushed in processing but I'm also fairly sure I have seen it show up in many of the vignetted (color or normal vignetting) test shots taken with rangefinder wides and the A7/ A7r. It's only speculation but I suspect it has something to do with Sony's move to a lossy raw compression only format without the option of the older Sony lossless compression raw format. Anyway, just throwing it out there as I think Sony should offer a lossless raw format again.

Nov 22, 2013 at 12:58 PM

waterden
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony A7 raw files

Ooh er and here's me assuming Raw is raw, not Craw. May explain why a7R raw files are so much smaller than those of the D800

Nov 22, 2013 at 01:51 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony A7 raw files

waterden wrote:
Ooh er and here's me assuming Raw is raw, not Craw. May explain why a7R raw files are so much smaller than those of the D800

A 24MP lossless raw out of my older Sony A900 is very close to the size (within around 1MB!) of a lossy raw out of the 36MP A7r just to give an idea of how much compression is going on with Sony's current lossy raws.

Nov 22, 2013 at 02:25 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony A7 raw files

If I remember correctly, the A100, A700 and A900 were the only Sony aps-c and FF cameras (not sure about R1) that offered a non-compressed raw.

Nov 22, 2013 at 02:35 PM

_julian_
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony A7 raw files

In the video Bart uses the Sony raw converter software to unpick the changes applied by the camera

If it is possible to unpick the changes, then they obviously weren't performed by the camera and baked into the raw.. Instead they are metadata directives from the camera to the processing software, that will be ignored by third-party raw converters.

Nov 22, 2013 at 02:38 PM

douglasf13
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony A7 raw files

_julian_ wrote:
If it is possible to unpick the changes, then they obviously weren't performed by the camera and baked into the raw.. Instead they are metadata directives from the camera to the processing software, that will be ignored by third-party raw converters.

That's exactly what has been the case with past Sony cameras. Sony got tons of negative feedback when they baked NR into the A700's raws, and they fixed it in firmware. I doubt they'd make that mistake again.

Nov 22, 2013 at 02:46 PM

mchaney
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony A7 raw files

I wanted to let people know that Qimage Ultimate now supports raw photos from the A7 and A7R. You can check out the trial at this link, but be aware that color (particularly hue) will be more accurate in the full/registered version since the raw ICC profiles are not included in the trial but are included in the purchased version:

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u

In developing the A7 support, I saw no evidence that noise reduction or any other modifications were being performed on the raw data itself. It does look like the Sony raw software applies some heavy NR particularly at high ISO but the raw data itself appears to be unaltered and the software appears to be applying that after-the-fact. I was able to pull out much more detail in raw photos at ISO 6400 and higher using Qimage Ultimate when compared to the Sony software which appeared to make mush of the image at high ISO speeds. With NR off, you see more "grain" but it is not as objectionable as the heavy NR applied by the Sony software (and by the camera to the JPEG's) which makes the image look like smeared clay in many places.

Anyway, since there appear to be very few choices WRT Sony A7 and A7R raw developing software at the moment, I thought readers here might appreciate another option. This is particularly true since DCRAW (which many third party tools use for raw support) hasn't been updated since June so it may take some time for individual developers to reverse engineer the raw format for new cameras until/if that is updated.

Mike

Nov 30, 2013 at 06:23 PM

carstenw
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony A7 raw files

Interesting, thanks. Are you one of the developers?

Nov 30, 2013 at 07:03 PM

mchaney
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony A7 raw files

carstenw wrote:
Interesting, thanks. Are you one of the developers?

Yes. I'm the owner and lead developer. We just got our A7 Wednesday and I've been knee deep in the raw files ever since. I've not been a Sony fan to be honest. Until now. The A7/A7R look to be game changers and I'm quite impressed both using it and developing for it.

Regards,
Mike

Nov 30, 2013 at 07:37 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony A7 raw files

Cool, Mike. Thx much! I was a long time QImage user until I switched to Mac. I assume you are still windows PC only correct?

Nov 30, 2013 at 07:53 PM

miklar
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony A7 raw files

mchaney wrote:
Yes. I'm the owner and lead developer. We just got our A7 Wednesday and I've been knee deep in the raw files ever since. I've not been a Sony fan to be honest. Until now. The A7/A7R look to be game changers and I'm quite impressed both using it and developing for it.

Regards,
Mike

Used your product until I switched to Colorbyte's Image Print, primarily due to Epson's large format printers restrictions. Really liked you product. A few days ago a email arrived from your firm, which unfortunately was deleted.
Will get in touch with your people shortly and looking forward to using it again.
cheers

Nov 30, 2013 at 09:12 PM

kroyston
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony A7 raw files

As one of, what seems to be the few remaining Aperture user holdouts, I thought I point this out here. I've been converting Sony's RAW files to DNG using Adobe's DNG Converter. However, not all images are readable by OS X. Only the images I've taken with adapted lenses and converted to DNG can be used. All files taken with native FE and E lenses are unrecognized by Aperture and OS X.

Now Apple is aware and has published a known concern about converting RAW files with embedded barrel distortion correction. According to Apple, DNG converter automatically uses a linear conversion for these files, which is unsupported by OS X. I figured, I would be able to defeat this by turning off ALL corrections including Lens and Noise Reduction, but no such luck. It appears as though no matter what is turned off, Sony is still embedding corrections within the file, that it is not doing with unknown adapted lenses. Whether this is a metadata fix, or correction applied to the RAW itself is beyond me.

I thought maybe this was a case of a bug within the DNG converter release candidate. So I used some files from my NEX 6 with an older converter and have the same issue.

I guess this just means I have to use my adapted glass more until the Apple update.

Nov 30, 2013 at 10:07 PM


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