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Archive 2013 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless

  
 
Makten
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p.145 #1 · p.145 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


miklar wrote:
When you reference DNG converter what exactly are you doing?


Probably he has an older raw converter and doesn't want to upgrade it, so he wants to run the files though DNG converter. Like I do.



Dec 25, 2013 at 10:53 AM
miklar
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p.145 #2 · p.145 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


A little "rant" from me :-)
It is interesting to see all of the pros, cons and reasons for acquiring or not an A7(r).
One of the arguments being made that this is questionable for use as a street camera. The following are my arguments in favour of using it for that purpose and more:

First and introduction; I have a substantial number of lenses and all the necessary portable and stationery equipment for fine art reproduction and action photography. The bulk of which are Nikon products. My love for photography has me carrying large bodies (i.e. D3x) plus a flash and at least one bulky lens almost daily for hours on end.
The above weighs in at slightly over 9 Lbs. Not the most comfortable thing on oneís shoulder, as well most conspicuous, although these days with everyone parading their DSLRs, that is becoming less so.
As well I was seriously considering the D800E, which would have cut the weight down by a little over half a pound, plus an additional battery. More on this later.

After several attempts acquiring small cameras, which essentially required new ďsystemsĒ. These included the Nikon 1 V1 (a much maligned, but great camera for special purposes), and three months ago the Sony NEX-6. Neither gave me the quality of images Iím used to.
Shortly after getting the NEX-6 Sony announced the A7 series, which seemed like a dream come true. So, I pre-ordered one, including the FE 35 and the soon to be released FE24-70 and after reading rave reviews on the FE 55 it too was added to the order.
Soon, after awakening from my dream and reality set in, Iím now starting to believe in Santa Clause again 
Not only does it meet my dreams, but exceeds them!
- To start with Ė weight Ė in an inconspicuous shoulder bag with two lenses, two batteries and a flash, it comes in at 4.6 Lbs. Half of what Iím used to carrying.
- Image quality is superb.
- Dynamic range every bit of what I could have hoped for, this has always been a limiting factor of past DSLRs
- Moire, yes, but less than what I was expecting.
- Battery life is only half of what Iím used to and does require at least one battery as a spare. It is also necessary to turn off a number of features when not needed to limit the drain on the battery.
- Flare, the Nikon glass can replicate some of this, but not to the degree seen on this site, Iíve not been able to replicate this issue using either the FE35 or FE55, although there have been several posts here showing these lenses do create flare.
- EVF, the best Iíve used and the fact that one is able to use it (or the monitor) by itself with all of the feature displays and zooming is fantastic. Admittedly, one has to get used to a somewhat awkward manner of reaching the correct buttons when solely using the EVF.
- Video, is better than any of the Nikon products and Iím puzzled by the negative comments from some of the reviewers. It needs to be noted, this is not a video camera and will get quite warm if used for more than a few minutes at a time.
- Shutter noise is both loud and one can feel it while holding the camera. With long lenses a very firm platform has to be used, or a shutter speed of less than one second or more than 1/150 of a second is needed to get a crisp image. Other than that Iíve been able to get sharp images at speeds of 1/40 of a second with lenses of 100mm or less.
- Start-up from a cold start is about 1 second, not as fast as Iím used to, but acceptable. Habitually I donít allow any camera to go into ďstandbyĒ mode, primarily to save battery power regardless of the system I use.

If your DREAM is for the perfect camera, without any of the noted issues, Donít consider the A7(r), it isnít perfect 
But it is perfect for me



Dec 25, 2013 at 12:11 PM
philip_pj
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p.145 #3 · p.145 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Man, it is for me too. And a lot of folks also, who see the results when they are not looking into the 'troubles'. Most of these I read are pros, who are hardbitten types used to compromises and workarounds.

Most things will fall into place - more familiarity with menus and settings, and simply getting used to the operation. Perhaps a firmware or two.

Everyone should develop their own list of 'must haves', to arrive at a kind of use case set of personal needs. Mine is: lenses 100mm and under must behave well on tripod or handheld at my (established on DSLRs) 90% keeper rate of 1/2-3 x FL.

I see no problems with light (Traveller/Markins) tripod work for near infiity work on the 100mm. All is well on any lens using the above formula which is even a little conservative, as a 200mm lens is extremely good at 1/400 and the 100mm at 1/200s. One thing I noticed is the performance is so strong that aperture changes and even mid ISO changes are visible, leading to some interesting tradeoffs.

The detail available and even delicacy is in another league, and colour performance is right there with it, and 3D from greater realism, and flexible files, recovery at both ends. I do have the feeling, sflxn (I think) mentioned recently that the camera was rushed to market, maybe that is so. I see the point, maybe the 24Mp a7 was the longer under development, polished camera and the a7r a later decision. Whatever the reason, I am glad they did do the a7r when they did...



Dec 25, 2013 at 04:59 PM
miklar
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p.145 #4 · p.145 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless





Dec 25, 2013 at 08:14 PM
nandadevieast
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p.145 #5 · p.145 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


A7 flare/reflections: A tubelight that i am...just struck to me that many lenses do flare. Thats why they come with a 'lens hood'.
Maybe lens hood will help...
Not sure about reflection thing though...

carstenw wrote:
1) yes, I have seen one photo from the A7R where exactly the same type of disturbing reflections are present as with the A7. I don't yet know if the problem is present in the A7R to the same degree, but my working assumption is that it is.

2) no, apparently there is an internal magnesium front plate in both cameras to which the mount is attached. I don't know if the exterior magnesium front plate of the A7R gives additional strength to the mount, or if it is just a feel thing.




Dec 26, 2013 at 10:48 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.145 #6 · p.145 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


nandadevieast wrote:
A7 flare/reflections: A tubelight that i am...just struck to me that many lenses do flare. Thats why they come with a 'lens hood'.
Maybe lens hood will help...
Not sure about reflection thing though...

How hood would effect to light source which is in the frame? The weird reflections are from strong light sources inside the frame.

Hoods are great, I use them always when possible; also when I reported reflections (9, 10a, 10b, 11) and weird flare (11 it was shoot with hood, somebody later confirmed similar weird flare - that is FE35 specific thou, not sensor specific - like explained in picture text I could not shade front lens without my hand visible in picture, not sure why this happened, it might have been also the light source in the frame), see:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1255248/20#11983941

And confirming reflections are not caused by FE35 but the sensor itself, shooting ZE 1.4/35 (with hood of course, even it has nothing to do with reflections):
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1255248/31#11995357

I honestly hope nobody ain't so stupid that complains about flare and at same time shoots without hood OR with hood but letting sun or other lightsources outside the image to shine to front lens element. When I shoot on conditions sun is shining to front lens element I use 2s/10s timer and then shade the front lens element with suitable device (hat, hand, whateveravailable).

Samuli



Dec 26, 2013 at 04:26 PM
carstenw
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p.145 #7 · p.145 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Sony A7, FE35 @ f/2.8:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/SonyA7/CW_20131202_SonyA7_0013.jpg



Dec 26, 2013 at 05:06 PM
secondclaw
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p.145 #8 · p.145 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


By the way, concerning the flare with Metabones ... I went out shooting last night to see exactly how the flare is generated.
So, using 24-70mm MK2 + Metabones3, at 50mm:
1. When the light source is right off the edge of the frame, it flares with a clean long flare. I see it at f2.8 and at f16.
2. When I continue to pan the light source out of the frame, the flare disappears at around 0.5 degrees of rotation, but at around 1 degree it flares again, with a much longer, ugly, patterned flare. So basically at 50mm, with the light source 1 degree away from the sensor, the flare comes back stronger than ever. It seems like the first flare is sensor specific (and I see it with NEX-7 as well, with a native lens), but the second flare is likely something having to do with Metabones interacting with reflective surface of the sensor.

Though this is now off-topic, but I also got an interesting flare from a point light source IN the frame using Hawk's Helicoid and CV 35mm f2.5 lens. The flare was a ray - like a starburst of a stopped-down lens, but two rays went all the way across the frame.
I believe this was at f/11 ... it's harder to see though:
http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8V59Y50ZUew/Urzhus-SmxI/AAAAAAAADuc/94ELx7s2uIY/s1000/_DSC1000.jpg



Dec 26, 2013 at 09:12 PM
andrenth
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p.145 #9 · p.145 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find the info with all the A7(r) threads. Do these cameras behave like the RX1 and return focus to infinity when they wake up, or do they keep it where it was?

Cheers.



Dec 27, 2013 at 06:32 AM
carstenw
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p.145 #10 · p.145 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


They keep it where it is, at least with the FE35. I think only cameras with built-in lenses would do such a thing.


Dec 27, 2013 at 06:59 AM
nandadevieast
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p.145 #11 · p.145 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Lookd like the fever is dying down. Now some people will go out and take pictures and restore the sanity...


Dec 27, 2013 at 07:50 AM
miklar
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p.145 #12 · p.145 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


carstenw wrote:
Sony A7, FE35 @ f/2.8:

http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/SonyA7/CW_20131202_SonyA7_0013.jpg


Your image and most that have been posted using native glass the flare seems to come from strong light glaring into the lens.
I'm still trying to find the perfect spot where this can be replicated and then plan to use one of my DSLRs and the A7r with native lenses and similar setting to see what the results will be.
This will only happen once we're past a major ice-storm and rain and snow...
Cheers



Dec 27, 2013 at 10:55 AM
carstenw
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p.145 #13 · p.145 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


By the way, the same happens with the ZF.2 35/1.4, I just happened to make this shot first.


Dec 27, 2013 at 12:15 PM
Makten
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p.145 #14 · p.145 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


carstenw wrote:
By the way, the same happens with the ZF.2 35/1.4, I just happened to make this shot first.


It happens with every lens I've tried on the a7. But I really don't mind it. I can see similar flares on some shots from other cameras that I've had. Just that I never knew it could have been due to the sensor and not the lenses, so I never cared.

-----------------------

This might be of interest for you Carsten, since I know you love the ZF 50/1.4 Planar. I just bought the FE 55...


Sonnar versus Planar by Martin Hertsius, on Flickr


As you can see, it's not really large once you compare it to a medium sized standard SLR lens, with adapter. And my god, it's good. In fact, so good that I think I'll sell every ~50 mm lens I have and just keep the FE. Even though the aperture is slightly smaller than I sometimes want, it is awesome for isolating medium far subjects from the background, thanks to the very nice rendering and smooooooooth bokeh.

I haven't used the lens for more than a couple of hours, but the look is almost like medium format. All the aberrations that one usually see with fastish ~50 mm glass wide open are just gone. It's like a 55 mm version of the RX1 lens.

The hood is huge though (and all metal! edit: upon closer inspection it's only partly metal), but I doubt that you really have to use it. AF is very fast and silent in good light, but slow in poor light. Seems accurate though, but don't point it towards bright lights. Then it will miss, just like the RX1 does.



Dec 27, 2013 at 12:28 PM
carstenw
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p.145 #15 · p.145 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


I was in the Sony store today, and if I were a few thousand richer, I would have walked out with one. It is on my list I need to sell something. I doubt I will sell my ZF 50/1.4 though; I love that lens.

---

I hesitate to mention this, since I haven't really done any proper testing yet, but am I the only one who feels that the image quality of the A7 isn't quite as impressive as expected? It is good, no doubt, but (ignoring resolution), my feeling is that the D800 is better. I need to do some proper testing, and I might finally get a good chance to do so tomorrow. The specific problems are tonality and skin tones. I find the files "thinner" than the D800 files, and harder to make subtle changes to. Skin tones are a touch dead.

Maybe it is just Lightroom. I haven't tried other developers yet. It wouldn't surprise me. However, this is my hunch at the moment.



Dec 27, 2013 at 12:59 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.145 #16 · p.145 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Carsten, compared to Canon 5DmkII I don't need to do any tests; files are much better (I don't think anybody expected anything else). Only annoying thing with Sony sensors is that they tend to turn green undergrowth of forest to more yellowish than it actually is. My A850 does the same as well.


Mac Pro gave up finally after 7 years usage. Temporarily I'm using Windows computer, and since I have no software purchased to Windows I had to use the Sony "Image Data Converter". I think this is one of the crappies RAW software I have ever seen. Maybe same guys "designed" usability of the software, who did the A7 menus, it's so bad that it's funny. Some examples of not using brains:
- when RAW-settings are saved to image (it saves few kilobyte XML-file) it converts the RAW without saving files anywhere (takes many seconds)
- if you apply RAW-settings to multiple images it will convert all the RAWs, this naturally takes forever
- if you copy settings from image to another (only possible to copy all settings) and you have used color picker for white balance, it copies the pixel position of color picker and not the Kelvin + Tint thou this will create very artistic results...
- software crashes all the time and in all kind of different operations
- TIF-images are exported without color profile (took forever to figure how to fix this with ImageMagik)
- TIF-images are exported without EXIF (easy fix, just copy EXIF from .ARW to .TIF with exiftool)
- vertical images are randomly either on 90 degree wrong or 180 degree wrong (Windows preview, Irfanview, ImageMagick whatever software you try except Sony), also without changing anything same image can come randomly 90 degrees wrong or 180 degree wrong
- standard zoom amount for landscape images will nicely scale them to RAW editor window - however for vertical images same zooming value is used, so it crops 1/3 from bottom (you have to scroll to see whole image or click button which zooms to display size)

And I could continue this list forever. Any function I have used this far is done worse than all competitive software from 10 years ago. Clearly there is no intention that nobody would ever user the software seriously.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Managed to get different than expected flare - instead of "coma from hell" very many point like reflections - Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 2.8/21 ZE @ f/9:




This is sad, because sensor is much better than 5DmkII. Luckily I don't take so many urban nightshots. Took yesterday some ordinary (=not urban, no damn streetlights in every corner) nightshots from 6 minutes to 25 minutes, but can't process them without HDR-software. Viewing invidual HDR-frames the noise level seems to be very well controlled.

Samuli



Dec 27, 2013 at 01:51 PM
secondclaw
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p.145 #17 · p.145 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Samuli - I actually don't mind this type of flare as much - it seems more common (though it is a bit too much in your photo). I have seen same flare with NEX-7. Frankly, the sunrays created by stopped-down blades bother me more (hence I'm not a fan of odd-numbered blades lenses) in night shooting. I much prefer CV's 10-bladed version to Canon's 9, since the starburst is just overpowering and unnatural. Adding a flare to it doesn't make it significantly worse to me. Its those ugly long lateral flares that bug me.


Dec 27, 2013 at 02:55 PM
philip_pj
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p.145 #18 · p.145 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


'It's like a 55 mm version of the RX1 lens.'

Against which benchmark it was no doubt designed. Now they don't need to make an 'RX2'.



Dec 27, 2013 at 04:30 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.145 #19 · p.145 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


secondclaw wrote:
Samuli - I actually don't mind this type of flare as much - it seems more common (though it is a bit too much in your photo). I have seen same flare with NEX-7. Frankly, the sunrays created by stopped-down blades bother me more (hence I'm not a fan of odd-numbered blades lenses) in night shooting. I much prefer CV's 10-bladed version to Canon's 9, since the starburst is just overpowering and unnatural. Adding a flare to it doesn't make it significantly worse to me. Its those ugly long lateral flares that bug me.


I'd love it if I could just turn starbursts on and off, but the ray-gun flare really drives me nuts.



Dec 27, 2013 at 04:44 PM
joanlvh
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p.145 #20 · p.145 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless


Hi if you have found an 85mm 1.4 that like on A7, could you say? Thanks


Dec 27, 2013 at 05:31 PM
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