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Archive 2013 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

russdenney01
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

I have a question...

As my photographic skills have improved, I have been increasingly encouraged to shoot professionally, and I have been asked to do so on more than one occasion. Thus far, I have declined requests to shoot weddings and portraits.

I am now in the process of giving this another round of thought as I feel my skills and equipment are finally getting to a point where the results are what I feel would be acceptable.

Here comes the catch, and I hope you guys don't think less of me

I have little to no interest in photographing unattractive subjects, and potentially only focusing on photographing females. Now, before you go off on the deep end on me calling me some creepy bastard, let me elaborate...

My recipe for good portrait work has always started with a beautiful subject...mostly my daughter and a select few of her friends. Call me shallow, but for portrait work to be an art form, I need/prefer the subject to be attractive for starters. The rest is up to me. I have zero interest in shooting models/subjects that do not visually appeal to me...I am being brutally honest here perhaps to my own detriment. Respectfully, please spare me the talk about making unattractive subjects look attractive...I know what will work for me.

I have a full time career so the photo business would be a chance to produce more quality photographic art and get paid for it at the same time. I do not need the income to survive, but I am looking to charge a premium for the service...

The problem I have is this, how do I manage this? If I get a call from a potential client that wants me to photograph someone I have no interest in taking pictures of, what do I tell them? Can I set up an invitation only business? Is anyone else doing this?

Edited on May 21, 2013 at 11:28 AM · View previous versions

May 21, 2013 at 10:54 AM

trevanian
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

it's an intriguing question. How do you attract atractive people only? I imagine if you shoot models, they should only be attractive people. I guess you could tell the non beautiful people the truth but might get you sued for what I'm not sure of but they will think of something.

May 21, 2013 at 11:07 AM

russdenney01
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

. Get sued because you basically told someone they weren't attractive...new genre of law suit "aesthetic discrimination" When you think about it, modeling agencies turn people away all the time because they don't have "the look."

A friend of mine recommended I pitch the business as the fact that I am an "artist" who is going for a particular look. They would be purchasing the portraits as "commissioned art work." He said I might even be able to charge a little more with this approach...

May 21, 2013 at 11:17 AM

Steve Wylie
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Okay, you're basically turning the customary business model on it head. Instead of offering your services to any client that wants to come to you, you're pitching yourself to your intended customer exclusively. I think your friend is right. But this means that you cannot market yourself publicly, at least until you have a portfolio of commissioned work that places you in a particular niche and at a price point that allows you to get the kind of client base that you want.

May 21, 2013 at 11:48 AM

Chris Fawkes
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

What age are you thinking of targeting?

There are forms of marketing that can be appropriate for an age range and not so for another.

May 21, 2013 at 11:50 AM

russdenney01
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Females Aged 16 - 30 mostly...

I was looking at leveraging the connection I have through my daughter and her high school friends. I also have some connections to a college crowd through a friend...

May 21, 2013 at 12:03 PM

russdenney01
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Steve Wylie wrote:
Okay, you're basically turning the customary business model on it head. Instead of offering your services to any client that wants to come to you, you're pitching yourself to your intended customer exclusively. I think your friend is right. But this means that you cannot market yourself publicly, at least until you have a portfolio of commissioned work that places you in a particular niche and at a price point that allows you to get the kind of client base that you want.

Very good points indeed Steve. I had not planned on marketing my services as generally available. I would leverage the contact I have in my natural market to develop the desired portfolio. I have some stuff already, but I would need a little more.

May 21, 2013 at 12:14 PM

Squirrely Eyed
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Translated a little differently, you are interested in managing your brand to present a certain type of visual style. This is something quite common in the photographer/model communities, you will find that people are highly selective to either build their portfolio or get the specific result for which they are looking.

If you are well-enough known in your area for your style, people who like your style will seek you out, at which point you can be selective. The trickier part may be getting your image (pardon the pun) established for prospective clients.

May 21, 2013 at 12:30 PM

seckinjo
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Making art: Hire who you want for the look you want.

Making $ or eye babies with young women: Talk to and shoot a 10's friends. Reject them, she may date you but won't pay you.

Hot women over 28: Work the vanity market. Buy marti.g3's couch.

May 21, 2013 at 12:34 PM

friscoron
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Not really sure how you're going to pull this off, Russ. On your websites, do you say: "I only take commissions to photograph hot chicks!"?

If you do this as art, I'm fine with what you want to do. But I'm just not sure how you tell someone who's only somewhat attractive that you don't want to work with them? I'd have a hard time with that. When I shoot for art, it's easy. I simply don't offer to photograph them, but if they want to hire me for pay, they can.

May 21, 2013 at 06:39 PM

FredVf
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

I know there is probably no right or wrong way to feel about this, but if there were I'd say you are not thinking about this right. I completely get what you are feeling, and I have thought about this as well. I once heard someone say that the fastest way to improve your photography is to put prettier things in front of the camera! I think, especially for a beginner, that is true, but I honestly believe that ugly people can make beautiful subjects as well, or better said, everyone has a beautiful angle, and a talented and skilled photographer will be able to find it and capture it.

If you have the opportunity to do this, and it sounds like you do, I would forget about the whole "pretty/ugly" thing and just try to shoot great portraits. Shoot the best portraits you can. I have been surprised by photographs I took of people I did not think were so attractive, and when I looked at the images, they really surprised me. They are now some of my favorite images.

I am fairly ammateur myself, but for what it is worth this is Just my 2 cents.

May 21, 2013 at 07:09 PM

russdenney01
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Thanks for the input guys.

I have also received some PMs from people who have suggestions and are doing something similar.

While offering my services to everyone may be a noble thing to do, I don't have an interest in being noble in this aspect. I have a particular look I want, and I know what I would find acceptable.

Again, this is a business I do not need to make money at. Profit would not be my primary motive. Producing images I find desirable would be.

May 21, 2013 at 07:18 PM

russdenney01
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

friscoron wrote:
Not really sure how you're going to pull this off, Russ. On your websites, do you say: "I only take commissions to photograph hot chicks!"?

If you do this as art, I'm fine with what you want to do. But I'm just not sure how you tell someone who's only somewhat attractive that you don't want to work with them? I'd have a hard time with that. When I shoot for art, it's easy. I simply don't offer to photograph them, but if they want to hire me for pay, they can.

I understand your point Ron. My website, if I had one, would most likely do no more than display my work with no mention about service for hire. Again, the secret sauce here is exclusivity - "by invitation only to produce works of art." or something to that effect...

I have a sales background and would be reaching out to prospects directly, face to face. I would most likely have a concept in mind with specifics for the model that I could discuss and storyboard for them. This commission would be produced "with them and their look in mind." This may help alleviate the notion of me being just another portrait photographer for hire.

Believe me, I don't have it all figured out, and I am not certain it would work. Your comments and concerns are a valid and much appreciated.

May 21, 2013 at 07:26 PM

elliotkramer
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

To be honest, it does sound a little creepy. Especially the part about using your teen daughter as a way to approach her friends or whatever. Good looking women are generally paid to pose, not the other way around. When I get paid to take a photo of an attractive model, it is a company who pays me for my work and pays the model for hers. Are you actually expecting to profit off of your teenage daughter's friends? You would have to already be well known, have been published, have done shows in museums and galleries and have a reputation in the art world before attractive women will seek you out or pay you for a portrait.

May 21, 2013 at 09:06 PM

russdenney01
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Thank you for your comments Elliot.

Yes, I expect to profit from my teenage daughters friends or at least produce some great images in the process.

Using my daughter and natural market to approach other prospects, that's only been done by every photographer with a kid in high school that shoots senior portraits. And using one's natural market to spur business is as fundamental to sales as it gets...and sales is what I do.

You are thinking of it with the mindset of someone who is "in the business." Not everyone is a beautiful model who is in the business and looking to get paid. There are plenty of attractive prospects out there who would love to have some real quality portraits taken of themselves and will pay handsomely for it.

My concerns are focused mainly on how to maintain the selectivity and turn away or filter out prospects I don't want to work with. I want to minimize offending people as much as possible...can't do it all the time I know.

May 21, 2013 at 09:23 PM

scottam10
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Interesting idea but tricky to pull off

As I see it conventional business can be split into two main areas

1. Photographer paid by the portrait subject. Photographer takes photos of all comers with little control over who they take as a subject.

2. Photographer paid by customer who buys images of pretty girls (eg magazine, advertising images, framed artworks etc). Photographer (or end customer) pays to hire models to produce said images.

Generally models expect to get paid for posing, or at the very least they expect to get portfolio images for free in exchange for their time.

Targeted marketing is all I can think of. One possibility is to set yourself up shooting high school seniors - this could get you more 'pretty' models, but you still might have to take all comers.

Rejecting customers is a tricky one...I don't think you'd have much of an income stream with such a limited market, as a photographer you have to take what you can get, at least you're not reliant on the income

May 21, 2013 at 10:24 PM

pswann
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Challenging idea, Russ, and it's apparent that you've put some thought into it and its inherent difficulty. Here's the thing, for me at least. I don't find your proposition creepy, I find it unimaginative (which is worse). Granted, I'm making a huge assumption about your idea of what constitutes beauty but, reading between the lines, it sounds like it's a bit narrow and . . . what's the word . . . derivative. But no matter how attractive (whether conventionally or not) your subjects are, it seems—in my opinion—like your venture puts a little too much stock in that one-dimensional aesthetic package, ignoring, or at least diminishing, all those things make a successful portrait take your breath away, whether or not its subject is attractive or not.

But I certainly respect your willingness to throw it out there for the forum's response and stick to your idea. I guess if someone came on here and said "I'm fired up to shoot baskets. Just baskets" we'd probably all say "Knock yourself out."

I'd be interested to hear how this goes. Good luck!

May 21, 2013 at 10:44 PM

Lisa_Holloway
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

I'll be honest and say that I only enjoy photographing 'pretty' people too. So here's what I've found seems to help without sounding like a creeper. I only put those types of people on my website and blog. Now granted, I do children, teens, families, babies, etc...but if someone comes to me looking like your typical Kingman Wal-Mart patron, I will shoot them and give them every courtesy I give any other client but they will never see the light of my blog or website. When I choose my senior models/reps, I choose attractive girls. End of story. Plus, keeping your prices up there...way up there...will generally only attract those folks who enjoy being in front of the camera and like how they look. Someone who is 200lbs overweight isn't likely to drop $55 for an 8x10 of themselves, kwim? I'm going to stop now before I get blacklisted as a meanie too. haha

ETA that I do not turn away any paying clients unless I am booked or on maternity leave (as in now) and even then I just try to schedule people out further. However, my main points of advertising (my website, blog, Facebook page, business cards, etc) will only be filled with images that represent my brand and show what I want to sell. Call it shallow, call it whatever you want, but I am not going to include an image of a senior girl who is 200lbs overweight, covered in acne, and wearing a Dora T-shirt in my website galleries (this is purely hypothetical btw as I've never shot anyone that fits that particular description).

Edited on May 22, 2013 at 09:02 AM · View previous versions

May 21, 2013 at 10:46 PM

splay
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Totally understandable. In fact, the firm I shoot for is contemplating a refusal to shoot anyone of color, too. I mean, with their bizarre features and unattractive appearance, why would we shoot them?
However, it seems some fools think it's okay to discriminate on looks in general as long as they don't pinpoint the skin color. Eyes too close together, large nose, flared ears, balding, overweight...and all you other ugly people are making this selection process difficult! Pop you acne elsewhere and leave me to the beautiful people! You ugly folks suck! Oh, not you of color though! THAT would be wrong to say such things about you!
Psht...you hypocrites. At least have the honesty to leave me and my friends alone at the Aryan Parade. Besides, we're thinking a Beautiful People Parade might be in the works! You know, YOUR kind of people! But any color can be ugly, so it's all good....right?
My overweight subjects and handicapped friends wish you success!

May 21, 2013 at 11:43 PM

Peter Figen
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...

Some of the most interesting subjects are those that don't fit the standard definition, whatever the hell that is, of what attractive is. One of my most well known images - a black and white portrait of the diabetes afflicted Willie Dixon you would have turned down. Are you a creep? Have no idea. Shallow, definitely.

May 21, 2013 at 11:51 PM

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