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Archive 2013 · If you could do it all over again...

  
 
roland hale
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p.2 #1 · If you could do it all over again...


morganb4 wrote:
I would not have started it at all.

Seriously.




Thanks for the continuing advice, everyone. Posts here have definitely taken a more cautionary/foreboding tone since I checked last. While I haven't had first hand experience in my own business yet, I'm definitely aware of some of the challenges facing the industry right now. As a military photographer, I often shoot ceremonies, and at each ceremony there are at least 5-7 wives snapping away with DSLR's and quietly passing around business cards.

I've got to try though. Not starting isn't really an option. I have a window in my life and finances right now that will let me take the leap, so I can't pass on the opportunity. If it doesn't work, so be it.

For those that said they would not have started at all - why? What do you think you could have done differently in the beginning to be in a place today where you don't regret your decision?

Again, thanks to everyone for taking the time.



May 18, 2013 at 05:22 PM
roland hale
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p.2 #2 · If you could do it all over again...




PS - I looked at your link. The heading said "engagement", but I was nine photos in before I saw the first human.



Good point, thanks!



May 18, 2013 at 05:25 PM
skasol
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p.2 #3 · If you could do it all over again...


Very good Feedback.


May 18, 2013 at 10:10 PM
DannyBostwick
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p.2 #4 · If you could do it all over again...


Charged more. Lots of money was left on the table.


May 19, 2013 at 10:28 AM
NYstyles
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p.2 #5 · If you could do it all over again...


D. Diggler wrote:
For whatever reason, I have found that I don't like having my work copied [] and this has led me to not displaying on the internet some of my more favorite or unique images.


I'll still show on my site or blog. It was real bad on facebook when I had a business page, deleted it.(more because of the stock market but thats a whole other ball of wax! lol) I had to stop tagging people because other photographers harassed them to shoot. Several tried to client poach off comments inquiring for shoots. They were caught red handed and clients would tell what said photographer did... said photographer seemed to think its about price when they were booking me for my work not how much I cost! When I cast for projects i limit the info I post because a stalking photographer will suck off my idea!

As they say if you have haters like that you're doing something right! I have a whole hater club of jealous petty photographers. I wish they were like me, get inspired and strive to be as good instead of being petty jealous hater. I just dont hate on photographer better than me I try to be as good or better!



May 19, 2013 at 10:48 AM
D. Diggler
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p.2 #6 · If you could do it all over again...


NYstyles wrote:
It was real bad on facebook when I had a business page ... I had to stop tagging people because other photographers harassed them to shoot. Several tried to client poach off comments inquiring for shoots.


GEEZ. Some people! Sounds like desperation for business.




May 19, 2013 at 04:02 PM
Nikon_14
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p.2 #7 · If you could do it all over again...


roland hale wrote:
For those that said they would not have started at all - why? What do you think you could have done differently in the beginning to be in a place today where you don't regret your decision?



There are a number of factors that are totally unaffected by the decisions you make or amount of effort you put into this business.

For example, 2 weekends ago, w/ me in the room, a MUA prepping a bride told her that, "There's only 3 competent MUA's here in _______ Valley, but there are LOTS of good photographers." Needless to say, when she asked me for my card, I was a bit hesitant.

Then there's the treatment you get from the venues in which you work. Some will treat you with respect. But there are others that will serve you elegant fast-food trash (i.e., "McDonald's w/ silverware") 45 seconds before toasts begin- because after all, "the guests have to be served first".



May 20, 2013 at 06:59 AM
NYstyles
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p.2 #8 · If you could do it all over again...


D. Diggler wrote:
GEEZ. Some people! Sounds like desperation for business.



It was... not one person ever booked the "poachers" because they didnt care about price they wanted My work. Some of them I helped along the way for them to stab me in the back. I would never go to a photographers page and try to get business... I dont care how much I needed it! They didnt do it to just me either... the idiots dont seem to realize how small the world/photography community is and people talk. One of them is a big vulture, Many cant stand her! Sucks she has the same first name as I!! ekk I dont use my name for business thank goodness!


Sorry for the semi off topic chat OP!



May 20, 2013 at 07:31 AM
morganb4
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p.2 #9 · If you could do it all over again...


roland hale wrote:


For those that said they would not have started at all - why? What do you think you could have done differently in the beginning to be in a place today where you don't regret your decision?



I would not have started it. Simple as that. It was a huge mistake that has taken staggering amounts of time away from my family and my professional development.

I did it because I thought I could, I enjoyed photography, there is a family history of it and I wanted to make something of myself. However I am trained in other things and if I had focused on those a bit more then I would have been a bit further ahead in my day job career, I would have many more friends, better memories of my kids and a better relationship with my wife. Even if if I had been earning top dollar from it, I would still have jacked it in - just with slightly more to show from it.

I have been offered a PhD at work. If I had have focused more on my day job then I expect that opportunity would have arrived earlier.

Honestly, its not about what I would have done differently, I just dont have the passion. I have the interest and a bit of know-how but thats not enough to keep you going. You need passion and Im just not passionate about this. If I had wanted to improve and be more profitable I would have had to go full time.

I find the wedding industry hard to take seriously and thats another obstacle - I found it hard to sell something that I do not value. No way in the world would I pay 3-5k for wedding pics but thats what I was asking my clients to pay. Its just not where my head is at and its not what I value.

I have a degree in medical biophysics and a masters in human molecular genetics. I look back on the last eight years and I dont say to myself 'yeah that was fun', I say 'what the hell was I thinking!'.



May 20, 2013 at 07:48 AM
TRReichman
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p.2 #10 · If you could do it all over again...


roland hale wrote:
For those that said they would not have started at all - why? What do you think you could have done differently in the beginning to be in a place today where you don't regret your decision?


I realized that there is more to life than wedding photography. However, being successful in wedding photography tends to take up an enormous amount of time/energy/focus so it feels in many ways like you have to choose living a life of being successful.

The degree of difficulty has also risen dramatically over the last 5 years.

- trr



May 20, 2013 at 08:18 AM
DONIV
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p.2 #11 · If you could do it all over again...


roland hale wrote:
What's the #1 thing you would do or not do in starting up your business? Did you make any particularly good/bad initial decisions that effected your business?

I'm officially "opening shop" as a wedding photography LLC in Washington state this July, and my last two years have been spent saving and learning as best I can from the internet and colleagues. I've been planning for quite a while and feel like I have a good idea of what to expect and how to put my best foot forward.

That said, hindsight is 20-20, and I'm sure everyone here has
...Show more

It takes a lot of gross income to really "make it" and last in this industry full-time. I crunched a ton of numbers before I went full-time(former accountant) If you are not grossing more than 150k+ within 3 years of business (IMO), it is not worth it (this is generally speaking...many variables..age/overhead/living conditions...ect) I would consider 150k gross solid, but not great income after tax/insurance/2nd shooters/editors/overhead/marketing/equip..the list goes on and on and on.
Based on that, let's put things in perspective. If you are only charging 3k per wedding, you would have to book 50 weddings per year to gross 150k. Anyone here who has shot even close to 50 weddings know that just booking the 50 weddings is a full time job in itself...forget shooting/editing/emails/backing up/meetings/researching/working on your craft/stellar cust. Service/scouting...ect. All week you are hustling to book those 50 weddings and your weekends are shot to hell from shooting. You eventually get burnt out.
The Solution? CHARGE MORE! Hence why photographers who “made it” usually avg. at least 5k+ per wedding. The rest of the pack gets burnt out, stressed out, no family time, out of business….if they somehow last, they will be eating ketchup sandwiches during their retirement.

To answer your question

I would've focused heavy on Branding/Sales/Networking which leads to MO MONEY, which means less weddings/which means quality of life, family time, and a quality product to put your name on.

it is not easy.



May 20, 2013 at 09:51 AM
Sarah Dickerso
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p.2 #12 · If you could do it all over again...


DONIV speaks the truth from a numbers standpoint.

And it's NOT easy.

I don't know what I'd do over other than of course the same answer as many, positioning myself to charge more. I've been successful. The amount of work and shooting to be successful, though, is TREMENDOUS. I'm glad I did it. However, I am working on diversifying my income. I will still shoot weddings, but I will also be helping my husband in his business in a couple of different capacities.



May 20, 2013 at 12:09 PM
D. Diggler
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p.2 #13 · If you could do it all over again...


NYstyles wrote:
Some of them I helped along the way for them to stab me in the back. I would never go to a photographers page and try to get business.


What lowlifes!



May 20, 2013 at 04:07 PM
roland hale
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p.2 #14 · If you could do it all over again...


Thanks again to all for the insight. I appreciate your honesty.


May 20, 2013 at 08:21 PM
Prettym1k3
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p.2 #15 · If you could do it all over again...


DigMeTX wrote:
So were you not reporting sales taxes at all before that?

brad


D. Diggler wrote:
Why weren't you paying the sales tax in the first place?


Well, up until about 2-3 years ago, California was very vague (and, by the way, they still are) with how they define photography. They now, per an 80 page document, define photography as a "product based service", which means that even they admit it is a service (hence, sales tax is not applicable), but they believe it is subject to sales tax because it provides hard products (photographs). According to them, if you ever deliver anything physical to your clients, including if you load up your client's own thumdrive with images, and hand it to them, then their entire session is taxable. But if you deliver via only electronic methods, then it is not taxable. The worst part is that most B.O.E. employees don't even understand it. I had to talk to three different people to get even the most muddy and questionable of answers.

I suppose some fault rests with me. But there is zero communication between government agencies about this. I had a business license. I had insurance. I looked to see if there were any groups that I needed to join, or dues to pay. And no one mentioned contacting the B.O.E. But sales tax wasn't on my radar at first because I was providing a service, not a product. And only products are taxable. Then again, I've heard stories where people come clean and contact the B.O.E., and the photographer is told thank you, and just told to start paying as of immediately, instead of having their sales taxes backed to the beginning of their business. I was not so lucky.

It's sad because I was punished for doing the right thing. And honestly, this day and age there are so many government agencies telling you what to do and how to do it, it's nearly impossible to truly 100% abide by and comply with all applicable local, state, and federal laws. I mean, honestly, how many people truly pull a photography permit to shoot in a public park for an engagement session? I've venture to say that none of us actually do that.

On a side note, but the B.O.E.'s statement as to photography is almost intentionally written to confuse the crap out of people. Clearly written by a lawyer. And is far too long to simply communicate: "We need money. Screw you. What we say goes. Pay us sales tax because we said so."

Oh! And per the B.O.E., because I use SmugMug to sell my prints, I do not pay sales tax on that. Technically SmugMug pays the sales tax as SmugMug is making the sale, and I simply must pay income taxes on the 85% I receive from SmugMug. This came straight from a B.O.E. representative.



May 21, 2013 at 02:06 PM
tsproul1
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p.2 #16 · If you could do it all over again...


Sorry to take OT - set up a second company to sell prints. Anything physically sold goes through the "printing" business. That way you only charge use tax on that, not the whole thing. You may need an agreement between the 2 companies, to help protect your "photography" business ownership of the images. Not sure about it but if you just freely give images from one business to the other, that may weaken any copyright ownership claim. I'm no lawyer though.


May 21, 2013 at 05:49 PM
roland hale
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p.2 #17 · If you could do it all over again...


Interesting. Yeah, Washington's DoR is currently developing a tax guide for photographers. Apparently there's been quite a bit of confusion in our state too.


May 21, 2013 at 08:32 PM
D. Diggler
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p.2 #18 · If you could do it all over again...


roland hale wrote:
Washington's DoR is currently developing a tax guide for photographers.


Some states do charge tax on photo "services". In those states it wouldn't matter if you're delivering anything tangible or not. The amount taxed is 100% of what you charge the client.

To give you an idea of how various services are taxed and how it varies by state:

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/pub/services/online/default_07.html



May 21, 2013 at 08:36 PM
Scott Mosher
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p.2 #19 · If you could do it all over again...


Prettym1k3 wrote:
Well, up until about 2-3 years ago, California was very vague (and, by the way, they still are) with how they define photography. They now, per an 80 page document, define photography as a "product based service", which means that even they admit it is a service (hence, sales tax is not applicable), but they believe it is subject to sales tax because it provides hard products (photographs). According to them, if you ever deliver anything physical to your clients, including if you load up your client's own thumdrive with images, and hand it to them, then their entire session
...Show more

Yeap. I had a good chat with someone from the BOE last week. Its as clear as mud. It took 25 days for them to answer a question I had.



May 21, 2013 at 09:22 PM
Prettym1k3
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p.2 #20 · If you could do it all over again...


Scott Mosher wrote:
Yeap. I had a good chat with someone from the BOE last week. Its as clear as mud. It took 25 days for them to answer a question I had.


Like I said. It's like they basically are saying, "Pay us money. We can't tell you why, nor tell your our legal reasons for demanding taxes, but you'll pay them. Or we'll screw you until you do."

My whole thing is if a government agency is going to demand money from me, they sure as hell better be able to cite code sections as to their authority and jurisdiction. And the people at the BOE are simply paper pushers who have no clue.



May 22, 2013 at 12:42 PM
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