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Archive 2013 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?

  
 
kezeka
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p.2 #1 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


redisburning wrote:
EVF & AF are a non-starter to me.

seriously AF is either for for pros/people with disabilities or the sort of chumps that drive automatic transmissions.


With opinions like that, you should consider chiming in on this delightful thread over in the land of Canon:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1207855



May 04, 2013 at 11:21 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.2 #2 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


theSuede wrote:
The geniuses (as you correctly label them) that came up with the compact J/V 1/2 series actually saved Nikon's butt last year. Those series most probably (from looking at their official economical statements) made more money than all of the FX and DX bodies combined in 2012 - which kind of was a saving grace for the R&D department and Dev. department at Nikon imaging, keeping them in a positive cashflow, allowing them to continue looking forward in stead of stagnating from running on fumes financially.

What you specify is AI-S spec and AF-S (G) spec full body, but in FM2
...Show more

How do you explain the RX1 then, or the X100 or the Coolpix A (yes, the two latter have smaller sensors, but they are just that, smaller, not thinner)?

theSuede wrote
Adding to that - you specified AF-S auto focus. One of the reasons that the FM is compact in height is that it DOESN'T have AF. The AF module sits under the mirrorbox, and adds about 15mm under the sensor that wasn't there on the FM series.


So the D3200 doesn't really have AF then? To make it even simpler, Nikon could offer AF based on the technology used in the 1-series cameras, which seems to work excellently.

theSuede wrote
Then after that, you'd probably want a real grip hump - I've used the FM quite a lot, and it's a very uncomfortable camera. It's slippery, it's thin, you have nothing to hold on to, and where you WANT to hold on to it to - it's all sharp edges. You can get more compact - but then you have to drop the F-mount, and with that - all F-mount lenses. And phase detection AF would have to go too. Anything else is just a pipe dream..


And the OM-D, which doesn't have a grip, is of course a failure.

theSuede wrote
F-mount flange distance: 46.5mm. Plus a minimum of 15mm body and electronics - 62mm. This is the minimum thickness of the camera body if you want F-mount, digital sensor and a back LCD.


If you don't want to invent and don't want to progress, your arguments make a lot of sense. Luckily, some camera manufacturers ignore this kind of thinking. That's the reason why we have cameras like the RX1, the X100s, the Coolpix A, the GR and the Merrils.



May 04, 2013 at 11:30 PM
AhamB
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p.2 #3 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
If you don't want to invent and don't want to progress, your arguments make a lot of sense. Luckily, some camera manufacturers ignore this kind of thinking. That's the reason why we have cameras like the RX1, the X100s, the Coolpix A, the GR and the Merrils.


None of those cameras have Nikon F-mount. Same reply to your first question -- you're talking about fixed lens cameras while TheSuede was commenting on the possibility of a digital FM3.



May 05, 2013 at 01:04 AM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.2 #4 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


AhamB wrote:
None of those cameras have Nikon F-mount. Same reply to your first question -- you're talking about fixed lens cameras while TheSuede was commenting on the possibility of a digital FM3.


The mount is only relevant for the distance from the sensor to the flange. That distance is the same on an FM as on a D800. Still the difference in size is hugely different, just as the F4 was a monster compared to the FM, even if both used film. On the cameras I mentioned, the manufacturers have managed to pack all the electronics in such a way that the cameras are pocket sized or close to pocket sized. What limits camera sizes nowadays isn't technology, but what size the manufacturers believe suits the target group for a particular model.

Edit: If you need proof that DSLR bodies can be made considerably slimmer than what is the case for current Nikon bodies, have a look at this:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#372,440

Pentax has a flange to sensor distance virtually identical to that of Nikon. Still, the body of the K-5 is considerably slimmer than that of the D7100 if you take away the protrusions.

Edit 2:
The best example of how small things can be done is actually Nikon's own V2:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#440,392

Those two bodies both do as much as or more than would be expected from an FM-D. Sensor size and flange to sensor distance are different, but functionality of the electronic circuits is very similar. By miniaturizing the electronics the same way as Nikon has done with the V2, space should not be a problem. The camera wouldn't be exactly the same as an FM, since the LCD etc. will take up space, but it shouldn't be larger than an M9 is compared to an M7, and the Leica crowd seems to live comfortably with that.



May 05, 2013 at 02:29 AM
pr4photos
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p.2 #5 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


I'd love a digital FM-D. I'm finding the whole idea of smaller bodies quite appealing. The quality of my M43 kit is amazing for what it is and I like the look of the Olympus OM-D. If Nikon came out with an FM-D at the right price I'd have one


May 05, 2013 at 04:17 AM
DaveOls
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p.2 #6 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


redisburning wrote:
EVF & AF are a non-starter to me.

seriously AF is either for for pros/people with disabilities or the sort of chumps that drive automatic transmissions.


Wait until you get old and decrepit and cant focus manually anymore and tell me you don't like AF.



May 05, 2013 at 06:26 AM
OneAnt
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p.2 #7 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?

I'd run around the room like a small dog ... and pee everywhere.

Either Zeiss makes an AF F-mount before my dottage or I'll never make it to old age. A dslr for manual focus is all thats wanted and Nikon have made so many idiots of AF-only that you have to wonder how far the idiot falls from the tree.

A bloody F-mount FF with focus screens is whats wanted and while someone above said "at the right price" ...I'll happily pay an idiot price.

In the meantime my Beattie Intenscreen Split Image Diagonal Grid for a Nikon F100 arrives tomorrow.

Ant.
ɹǝpun uʍop puɐl ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ



May 05, 2013 at 06:35 AM
f.hayek
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p.2 #8 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Nikon is the only 35mm camera manufacturer aside from Leica, that has maintained backward compatibility for all its earlier manual focus lenses (that I can think of) so it remains odd that they never did venture into this sort of a camera. With literally millions of older lenses out there, it seems obvious that there would be a demand.


May 05, 2013 at 07:32 AM
mawz
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p.2 #9 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


f.hayek wrote:
Nikon is the only 35mm camera manufacturer aside from Leica, that has maintained backward compatibility for all its earlier manual focus lenses (that I can think of) so it remains odd that they never did venture into this sort of a camera. With literally millions of older lenses out there, it seems obvious that there would be a demand.


Actually Pentax is king for backwards compatibility (well, after Leica), with compatibility all the way back to 1948-era Contax screwmount (and their own lenses back to ~1958). Nikon only supports back to 1976 or so and the AI mount and explicitly does not support pre-AI lenses, and then only on higher-end bodies (zero metering on anything below a D7x000, although some of the low-end bodies actually can safely mount most pre-AI lenses without metering)

Pentax provides partial metering support via stop-down metering, but does so on every Pentax DSLR



May 05, 2013 at 07:46 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #10 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


If Pentax/ Ricoh ever releases their unicorn FF DSLR, I think there is a good possibility it could be the smallest FF DSLR made - complete with mirror, prism and full backward compatibility. Small, compact bodies are a traditional hallmark of Pentax and should Ricoh choose, I think they have the technology and resources to make it happen.


May 05, 2013 at 07:58 AM
j.liam
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p.2 #11 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


I believe any pre-AI lens back to 1959 can be altered to AI, and there remain a few souls still able to do so professionally. Pentax sensors do have such wonderful DR. It is a shame they have fallen from popular grace. They make excellent medical imaging devices still. .


May 05, 2013 at 08:24 AM
theSuede
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p.2 #12 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
How do you explain the RX1 then, or the X100 or the Coolpix A (yes, the two latter have smaller sensors, but they are just that, smaller, not thinner)?


Well, the F-mount flange distance is 46.5mm. The BFD in the RX1 is 2mm, in the X100 it's ~4mm and in the A it's about 5mm. See a difference here? Maybe that the F-mount has a 10x larger depth inherent in its' construction? And PDAF making it about a thousand times better at continuous AF, something quite a lot of people feel to be important?

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
So the D3200 doesn't really have AF then? To make it even simpler, Nikon could offer AF based on the technology used in the 1-series cameras, which seems to work excellently.


Well, do please compare the D3200 (which I guess you know is an APS sensor, with 2x smaller AF module height and 1.5x lower mirror box clearing...) measurement from F-mount flange height center to body bottom plate with the FM2. You'll find it's quite a few mm's taller, even though it SHOULD have at least 10mm height advantage from a smaller sensor (compared to an FF sensor with a full-coverage CAM3500 AF module). But you COULD get an APS sensor into the FM2 height with some reshuffling (again making the construction more expensive). And you lose FX sensor size.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
And the OM-D, which doesn't have a grip, is of course a failure.


Yes it is. Not in a financial sense, and not from a performance sense - it's the fist camera model that actually MADE Oly money since 2008, and the first µFT model where they didn't have to give their regional retailers a VERY chunky sell-at-loss rebate so that the cameras could be sold at negative profit six months after introduction - just to get rid of existing stock.

From an ergonomical PoV, it kind of IS a failure. It has a small grip and it weighs quite a lot less than the FM2, but STILL a lot of people agree on that it's quite uncomfortable to use for extended periods of time.

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
If you don't want to invent and don't want to progress, your arguments make a lot of sense. Luckily, some camera manufacturers ignore this kind of thinking. That's the reason why we have cameras like the RX1, the X100s, the Coolpix A, the GR and the Merrils.


None of the cameras you mention are DSLR's with optical viewfinders, only one is FX (and it costs MORE than the D800... Does that give you a clue?). None of the cameras you mention allow more than a few mm's between the topmost filter plate and the rearmost lens surface. Se a trend here?

You can get compact FX mirrorless. That EXCLUDES having a real optical viewfinder, and that EXCLUDES having a real capable continuous tracking AF. It also excludes keeping the F-mount, for practical reasons.



May 05, 2013 at 09:02 AM
ISO1600
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p.2 #13 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


I think with today's technology, a sort of boutique DSLR (with conventional mirror and prism) could be made in the same (or VERY CLOSE) form factor as a FE/FM series camera.
DM3A.

Sensor out of D700/D3.
Manual Focus AI spec mount.
same Ti honeycomb shutter.
Do like the Epson RD1, have a shutter advance to cock the shutter.
NO LCD.
No video, just stills.

Already, it would be expensive due to the limited market, so i think these compromises would help bring that down.

I would buy it twice at or below $2000. It would be my end all.



May 05, 2013 at 11:57 AM
j.liam
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p.2 #14 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


A 5 year-old sensor wouldn't do and neither is the absence of an LCD display.

Monochrome would be very excellent. It would also be a provocative platform to introduce a non-Bayer sensor.



May 05, 2013 at 12:53 PM
mawz
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p.2 #15 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


j.liam wrote:
I believe any pre-AI lens back to 1959 can be altered to AI, and there remain a few souls still able to do so professionally. Pentax sensors do have such wonderful DR. It is a shame they have fallen from popular grace. They make excellent medical imaging devices still. .


Not all Pre-AI lenses can be converted. There are several pre-AI lenses including the 21/4 as well as the 12/5.6 and 15/4.5 Voigtlander SL's from Cosina which require MLU as well and therefore cannot be safely used on any body later than an F3 (yes, the F4, and modified F5 have flippy AI-tabs and MLU, but their MLU doesn't robustly lock and can be released accidentally, damaging the mirror).



May 05, 2013 at 02:50 PM
mawz
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p.2 #16 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


theSuede wrote:
Well, the F-mount flange distance is 46.5mm. The BFD in the RX1 is 2mm, in the X100 it's ~4mm and in the A it's about 5mm. See a difference here? Maybe that the F-mount has a 10x larger depth inherent in its' construction? And PDAF making it about a thousand times better at continuous AF, something quite a lot of people feel to be important?


You've missed Jorgen's point, which is that these cameras have much thinner LCD-Film plane thicknesses than the 15mm you've postulated. The RX1 is approximately 8mm from the film plane to the exterior of the LCD display. Everybody here recognizes that an F mount camera will be 46.5mm from the mount flange to the film plane, but you are postulating a much thicker setup behind that plane than is doable in practice.



May 05, 2013 at 02:53 PM
Mescalamba
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p.2 #17 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Only thing I would need from FM3-D would be - digital sensor - LCD - few buttons to work with digital part.

I would be happy with any analog SLR with digital sensor. Only problem is that we dont have them, except DMR.



May 05, 2013 at 03:26 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.2 #18 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


Sorry guys. It won't happen. Innovation has seized to exist. theSuede has said so already.


May 05, 2013 at 07:11 PM
jhinkey
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p.2 #19 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


j.liam wrote:
A 5 year-old sensor wouldn't do and neither is the absence of an LCD display.

Monochrome would be very excellent. It would also be a provocative platform to introduce a non-Bayer sensor.


Yes, I think you'd have to have an LCD - Monochrome would do me just fine to control the camera settings, check the histogram, etc.

I'd take the D3S sensor at a minimum . . . .



May 05, 2013 at 07:39 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.2 #20 · Nikon FM3-D imagined..What would you do?


jhinkey wrote:
Yes, I think you'd have to have an LCD - Monochrome would do me just fine to control the camera settings, check the histogram, etc.

I'd take the D3S sensor at a minimum . . . .


The D3S sensor would be perfect. The low MP count makes processing easier and faster, requiring a less advanced processing unit and would (probably) use less battery power, which means that a smaller battery (like the one in the V2) would be sufficient. It's also important to remember that many of the old lenses can't handle the resolution of a 24 or 36MP sensor. The problem with the D3S sensor is that it's probably discontinued. I could live with a D4 sensor though



May 05, 2013 at 11:19 PM
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