retrofocus wrote:
+1. To answer kewlcanon, I would be willing to pay a max. $2800 for a new high MP FF 5D series body regarding what sort of competition is now in the field. The $2800 include that Canon comes out with something new beating the competition. If this is not the case and the sensor is similar to the current D800 specs, my limit would be $2200 at most, likely less. The longer it takes, the more this initial price will drop.
Haha...best post on this thread.
You would expect to pay 600 less for a product that beats the D800 in every spec. Everyone agrees that on features the 5DIII is the best 'camera' released except for the DR and low ISO shadow noise, so why would a camera that fixes those 'issues' be priced lower than an inferior product?
Rickuz wrote:
One could also point out that Apple is selling more tablets and smartphones than all the other manufacturers combined. Does that make their gear flawless and immune to criticism?
Hype is everything. Canon (and Apple) has truly managed to get on top of that.
I really don't care how many cameras Canon sells. That doesn't change the fact that their sensor tech is outdated and way behind the competition. But you go on cheering for their sales if that's what you like.
I think you're missing the point. Canon and Apple are not all hype, they are backed by quality products that meet the needs of the consumers. If the vast majority of consumers are happy with the product, the company is doing a good job. Don't extrapolate the number of people on this forum that want high MP high DR sensors to the general public. Really it is the same 5-10 forum posters that always chime in looking to bash Canon for lagging behind. The overwhelming majority comes on the forums to say they are happy with the Canon 'system' since that is what a camera is.
No one is arguing that their isn't better sensor tech with Sony, they are saying that it is way down the list of reasons to buy a camera. The 'bad' sensors in canon are not like they were 10years ago, the level of difference in real world output is not much and not significant for a large percentage of camera users.
jctriguy wrote:
I think you're missing the point. Canon and Apple are not all hype, they are backed by quality products that meet the needs of the consumers. If the vast majority of consumers are happy with the product, the company is doing a good job. Don't extrapolate the number of people on this forum that want high MP high DR sensors to the general public. Really it is the same 5-10 forum posters that always chime in looking to bash Canon for lagging behind. The overwhelming majority comes on the forums to say they are happy with the Canon 'system' since that is what a camera is.
No one is arguing that their isn't better sensor tech with Sony, they are saying that it is way down the list of reasons to buy a camera. The 'bad' sensors in canon are not like they were 10years ago, the level of difference in real world output is not much and not significant for a large percentage of camera users....Show more →
Sven Jeppesen wrote:
Not according the the news at CNN on TV. They said that Samsung past them a rather long time ago. And that was Samsung alone, not all the other brands
Sven -- I don't know where you are getting your information. It seems Samsung is almost out of the DSLR market, lagging behind Pentax. The was solid camera Samsung made was that joint venture with Pentax back in 2008 or 2009. I'm certain Canon make an overwhelming amount more DSLRs.
Or was that a snarky comment about CNN's accuracy in reporting?
jctriguy wrote:
Canon and Apple are not all hype, they are backed by quality products that meet the needs of the consumers. If the vast majority of consumers are happy with the product, the company is doing a good job. Don't extrapolate the number of people on this forum that want high MP high DR sensors to the general public. Really it is the same 5-10 forum posters that always chime in looking to bash Canon for lagging behind. The overwhelming majority comes on the forums to say they are happy with the Canon 'system' since that is what a camera is.
No one is arguing that their isn't better sensor tech with Sony, they are saying that it is way down the list of reasons to buy a camera. The 'bad' sensors in canon are not like they were 10years ago, the level of difference in real world output is not much and not significant for a large percentage of camera users....Show more →
anthonygh wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking that Canon make more DSLRs than all other manufacturers combined? If this is the case then I guess they have a somewhat better grasp of the market than the pundits on here give them credit for.
Sven Jeppesen wrote:
Not according the the news at CNN on TV. They said that Samsung past them a rather long time ago. And that was Samsung alone, not all the other brands
I think that Canon has something like 40% of the DSLR market. Not too shabby.
Samsung is the largest maker of digital cameras, not DSLRs. Samsung makes a lot of sensors for cell phones, smart phones, and point&shoots.
retrofocus wrote:
1st big Canon mistake here: not to add the better already existing 7D AF system in the 5D MkII camera when it was released in 2008.
2nd big mistake: rest on the leadership in the FF field with the successful 5D II and wait 4 years to release a 5D II upgraded with very good AF (called 5D III). It would have worked out for Canon perfectly I am sure if Nikon wouldn't have surprised us all with the D800(E) and its price tag.
3rd big mistake: waiting too long to innovate in new sensor technology. I didn't give up my hope yet that Canon comes out with something good in the near future, but latest rumors don't make me confident. Canon might even leave the FF leadership position behind and focus even more towards videographers. Latest Canon lens releases point in this direction. ...Show more →
retro -- You and Rickuz should start a Canon-haters club.
What you list as "mistakes" are certainly not what Canon or their broad customer base would consider mistakes.
1) I'm glad the 5D2 was made as it was, without 7D functions. I have super-accurate center AF. It was a huge, huge hit of a camera and a groundbreaking design and use. A great creative tool at a terrific price, even new.
2) The 5D3 is a super-popular camera, and most owners rave about it, many preferring to the 1DX! For many Canon owners, the features of the D800 are not of interest compared to the whole package featured by the 5D3.
3) With Canon having the top sales of DSLRs, how can you say they "waited too long" to develop new sensors? People are still buying their sensors and cameras! I'm sure I'm not the only one to be happy with 5D2 and 1Ds3, not using the even more improved 5D3, 6D and 1DX. Canon is on an evolutionary track, and everyone feels they will eventually have higher MP and improved DR -- it's an incremental game.
The Canon gear is totally usable right now! You seem to lose sight of the fact that most owners are happy with the product line Canon offers, even a generation back -- it's still providing outstanding images. You are in a tiny sub-set of a minority with your complaints and displeasure.
Gunzorro wrote:
retro -- You and Rickuz should start a Canon-haters club.
What you list as "mistakes" are certainly not what Canon or their broad customer base would consider mistakes.
1) I'm glad the 5D2 was made as it was, without 7D functions. I have super-accurate center AF. It was a huge, huge hit of a camera and a groundbreaking design and use. A great creative tool at a terrific price, even new.
2) The 5D3 is a super-popular camera, and most owners rave about it, many preferring to the 1DX! For many Canon owners, the features of the D800 are not of interest compared to the whole package featured by the 5D3.
3) With Canon having the top sales of DSLRs, how can you say they "waited too long" to develop new sensors? People are still buying their sensors and cameras! I'm sure I'm not the only one to be happy with 5D2 and 1Ds3, not using the even more improved 5D3, 6D and 1DX. Canon is on an evolutionary track, and everyone feels they will eventually have higher MP and improved DR -- it's an incremental game.
The Canon gear is totally usable right now! You seem to lose sight of the fact that most owners are happy with the product line Canon offers, even a generation back -- it's still providing outstanding images. You are in a tiny sub-set of a minority with your complaints and displeasure. ...Show more →
Gunzorro wrote:
retro -- You and Rickuz should start a Canon-haters club.
What you list as "mistakes" are certainly not what Canon or their broad customer base would consider mistakes.
1) I'm glad the 5D2 was made as it was, without 7D functions. I have super-accurate center AF. It was a huge, huge hit of a camera and a groundbreaking design and use. A great creative tool at a terrific price, even new.
2) The 5D3 is a super-popular camera, and most owners rave about it, many preferring to the 1DX! For many Canon owners, the features of the D800 are not of interest compared to the whole package featured by the 5D3.
3) With Canon having the top sales of DSLRs, how can you say they "waited too long" to develop new sensors? People are still buying their sensors and cameras! I'm sure I'm not the only one to be happy with 5D2 and 1Ds3, not using the even more improved 5D3, 6D and 1DX. Canon is on an evolutionary track, and everyone feels they will eventually have higher MP and improved DR -- it's an incremental game.
The Canon gear is totally usable right now! You seem to lose sight of the fact that most owners are happy with the product line Canon offers, even a generation back -- it's still providing outstanding images. You are in a tiny sub-set of a minority with your complaints and displeasure. ...Show more →
Indeed.
1) The 5d2 was one of the most popular cameras of recent times and opened up an entire new market for video.
2) They certainly are. Pretty much everyone who has bought one has come to realise it's what more than they thought it would be.
3) I'm sure they are sorting out sensor issues. People need to be patient. Canon don't need to be told every single time that some people are bothered by this.
I do agree. I think people - as I've said for a long time - are very happy with Canon on the whole. Millions of users never even come by forums! Some people aren't and they are very vocal about it, but it's important to see past your own nose at what's happening elsewhere. These things weren't bad mistakes. If they were Canon (photographic) would be bust already..
Okay, the Canon police here in this forum jumped in, I expected this. Let me answer to some of the wrong accusations made regarding my earlier posts:
@jctriguy: my price estimate took into account that it might take a while before such camera would be released. Prices will continue to drop until then. The price for a brand new FF camera will be considerably lower in its introduction that it is now. I don't see the 5D III better than the D800 what you call inferior, but we had this disagreement earlier and we just have a different opinion in this regard.
@Gunzorro: an accumulation of excuses, sorry. Great that the AF center focus of the 5D II is reliable and defending the well known AF crippling to avoid interference with the 1Ds sales at the time. Next excuse is already funny to read - to say why Canon is behind in sensor technology.
@PhilDrinkWater: I never said that 1) isn't true, this is in fact correct. Point is that Canon currently has no sensor to compete with the superior Sony Exmor sensor. Even if people (not all!) like the 5D III and 1Dx, it is still a fact that an old sensor technology is in those models. And why shouldn't people say that Canon is behind? Because you work for them (directly or at least have the attitude as if you are Canon)?
retrofocus wrote:
And why shouldn't people say that Canon is behind?
Because some may be very much happy with taking the photos with their cameras and are sincerely hoping to limited by the camera some day from *any* manufacturer.
Others may have already change systems and be done with it.
Personally, Higher DR and extra pixels from other cameras would be nice to have, but the 5DIII is simply outstanding tool that I hope to outgrow. The only area where I would take a photo where extra DR is nice to have is for landscapes, but those shots are well planned, usually on a tripod and in camera easy to use HDR function works out nicely enough to compress the tone curve, otherwise I find myself north of ISO800 most of the times (and sometimes wayyyyy north) so the DR advantage is mute but the AF that works under those conditions (with 135 f2 to boot) is awesomeness!
Btw, red is about to come out with 16 stops DR camera soon, may want to save up for that if DR is what you really really need.
Canon may indeed be behind some of the other DSLR manufacturers, but not quite in the way you may think they are ;-) and may be enjoying themselves thoroughly. In any case, good for them!!
A few things.
1. Cameras are not getting cheaper at introduction, only after they have been released for a fairly long time. Don't expect a new FF model to be cheaper. Nikon are artificially lowering prices to saturate the market and hopefully sell lenses. Might be a good strategy, who knows??
2. Everyone agrees that the Canon sensors are not as good as Sony in low ISO DR, shadow noise and MP. They also agree that in all other aspects they are equal (high ISO noise and DR). We disagree on the importance and magnitude of those differences given the current state of technology.
3. This isn't an arms race, no one dies if Canon is 'beaten' by another company. Canon is very aware of what technology is available and how their tech fits in.
4. We are not Canon police any more than you are the bad sensor awareness mafia. We are all just camera users with different opinions and expectations. Just so happens that the you are a niche subset of camera users clamoring for this low iso DR and high MP sensor. Similar to all the fuss about FF mirrorless options, another niche, although likely more common than sensor tech.
A few things.
1. Cameras are not getting cheaper at introduction, only after they have been released for a fairly long time. Don't expect a new FF model to be cheaper. Nikon are artificially lowering prices to saturate the market and hopefully sell lenses. Might be a good strategy, who knows??
2. Everyone agrees that the Canon sensors are not as good as Sony in low ISO DR, shadow noise and MP. They also agree that in all other aspects they are equal (high ISO noise and DR). We disagree on the importance and magnitude of those differences given the current state of technology.
3. This isn't an arms race, no one dies if Canon is 'beaten' by another company. Canon is very aware of what technology is available and how their tech fits in.
4. We are not Canon police any more than you are the bad sensor awareness mafia. We are all just camera users with different opinions and expectations. Just so happens that the you are a niche subset of camera users clamoring for this low iso DR and high MP sensor. Similar to all the fuss about FF mirrorless options, another niche, although likely more common than sensor tech....Show more →
I agree in your points. Good that we found common ground . And in the end it is photography, a great hobby which we share no matter which camera we are using!
retrofocus wrote:
Okay, the Canon police here in this forum jumped in, I expected this. Let me answer to some of the wrong accusations made regarding my earlier posts:
@PhilDrinkWater: I never said that 1) isn't true, this is in fact correct. Point is that Canon currently has no sensor to compete with the superior Sony Exmor sensor. Even if people (not all!) like the 5D III and 1Dx, it is still a fact that an old sensor technology is in those models. And why shouldn't people say that Canon is behind? Because you work for them (directly or at least have the attitude as if you are Canon)? ...Show more →
They should. It's fine. I've said it many times myself if you care to look.
However it's one thing to state a fact (canon have poor low ISO dr and are behind in that area) and another to state an opinion (your "big mistakes"). I disagree with your opinion (the big mistakes) and said so and stated my reasoning. I don't see the problem with that? What were big mistakes for a portion of the market were big wins for others. Every camera and camera system has weak areas. The d800 has them. The d600 has them. However it's all to easy to ignore those, pick on the good bits and do a "grass is greener".
And I don't know why you have a problem with people having a different opinion, as evidenced by your "canon police" comment. Frankly with your comments I could accuse you of working for Nikon, but I personally wouldn't stoop..
1) The 5d2 was one of the most popular cameras of recent times and opened up an entire new market for video.
2) They certainly are. Pretty much everyone who has bought one has come to realise it's what more than they thought it would be.
3) I'm sure they are sorting out sensor issues. People need to be patient. Canon don't need to be told every single time that some people are bothered by this.
I do agree. I think people - as I've said for a long time - are very happy with Canon on the whole. Millions of users never even come by forums! Some people aren't and they are very vocal about it, but it's important to see past your own nose at what's happening elsewhere. These things weren't bad mistakes. If they were Canon (photographic) would be bust already.....Show more →
Even though I shoot Canon and get great photos, I still would love a high mpix large DR camera for landscapes. This would further allow me to push my skills into large landscape photos. The only other area I'm a little concerned with is Canon's latest pricing on their lenses. I feel they are pushing the extreme edges with their pricing and might start to alienate some new comers to the competition.
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
They should. It's fine. I've said it many times myself if you care to look.
However it's one thing to state a fact (canon have poor low ISO dr and are behind in that area) and another to state an opinion (your "big mistakes"). I disagree with your opinion (the big mistakes) and said so and stated my reasoning. I don't see the problem with that? What were big mistakes for a portion of the market were big wins for others. Every camera and camera system has weak areas. The d800 has them. The d600 has them. However it's all to easy to ignore those, pick on the good bits and do a "grass is greener".
And I don't know why you have a problem with people having a different opinion, as evidenced by your "canon police" comment. Frankly with your comments I could accuse you of working for Nikon, but I personally wouldn't stoop.. ...Show more →
Sounds more reasonable now! Yes, I agree that there are two main camps of Canon users who are interested in FF - I expressed this in another post earlier, and this only confirms it. There are fundamental different opinions and points of view, the best is just to accept each other's view and move on. Certainly I am not a Canon "hater" (in fact I love my Caonon glass too much for this ) but I am disappointed in the way Canon moves currently in the FF area and which group of photographers they target with new products. That's all. I am well aware that I can't change it, but I can express my opinion about it. I agree that the D800/600 also have their faults, but more in regard to LiveView for example. And no, I am not working for any of the camera gear manufacturers out there - otherwise I wouldn't write anything here in those boards.
Monito wrote:
Any thread where you are contradicted about your ceaseless Canon bashing, you call people "fanbois", or "police", or employed by Canon marketing.
It seems inconceivable to you that people can arrive at conclusions different from you without having ulterior motives.
Please lose the ego.
Monitor, see my post above, I totally understand that there are different opinions in this regard discussed here. And I also understand that I am a red flag for Canon fanboys and self-declared Canon police like yourself since I express openly my opinion where Canon IMO is lacking currently. It is a discussion forum, not a Canon praise&applause forum, get this?
abqnmusa , I love Canon and especially their lenses and their colors from their sensors, but it's necessary to expose a problem if you want to address it( low ISO DR is the problem). With your atitude you cannot push Canon to make better products. If Sony and now even Toshiba can deliver at least 2 stops more DR at low iso, why a giant like Canon can't do it ?
