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Archive 2004 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

charlesk
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Hey all...

After seeing some recent shots and comments from some of the good photogs here about using grad ND filters, I am considering getting one or two. At the same time, I know that some people prefer to use bracketed exposures and combine in Photoshop. I'm wondering if any of you who are either "pro" or "con" using grad NDs would be willing to share your thoughts with me for landscape photography?

Also... what sort should I get? From what I have read, a 2-stop soft and a 3-stop hard is a good 2-filter combo. How about brands and places to get them? I was surprised to find not that much availability in the 77 mm filter size I use for my 17-40....

Thanks for any opinions! --c

Aug 02, 2004 at 02:40 PM

thapamd
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

My thoughts...

1. Get Lee (or Sing-Ray) brand of filters. Avoid the screw on type. You want the rectangular/square ones.

2. 2 stop soft and 3 stop hard is a good start to the collection.

3. You'll need a 77mm adapter ring (and adapter rings for other lens diameter should you need it).

4. I like to use grad ND filters instead of bracketed exposures for shots that have moving objects in them (like the setting sun or the moon).

Aug 02, 2004 at 02:46 PM

charlesk
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Thanks for the reply, Mahesh. It was in part your comments in your Palouse thread that made me start thinking about this.

May I ask why I want to avoid the screw-on filters? I ask because I already have a screw-on UV, CP and non-grad ND and would like to avoid "multiple systems" unless there is a compelling reason to change. Thanks. --c

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:02 PM

thapamd
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

charlesk wrote:
Thanks for the reply, Mahesh. It was in part your comments in your Palouse thread that made me start thinking about this.

May I ask why I want to avoid the screw-on filters? I ask because I already have a screw-on UV, CP and non-grad ND and would like to avoid "multiple systems" unless there is a compelling reason to change. Thanks. --c

Well...the screw on type puts the transition directly at the center...exactly where you don't want it!

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:18 PM

charlesk
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Oh I see... it's so you can control where the transition is. Gotcha! That makes sense.

I just looked, though, and the Lee system is very expensive... I am on a budget and also saving for a new lens for next year.... I read about someone saying that they just hold the filter over the lens manually with good results -- is that practical? --c

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:23 PM

thapamd
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

With my 1Ds and full frame, holding the filter over the lens idea doesn't work so well...I tried it onece and had to place the filter directly on the lens surface to avoid vignetting with finger. (You'll want to hold the resin filters at the edges). I suppose with the crop of most other digital SLR's, you could get away with that method. Don't really know for sure.

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:26 PM

Sunny Sra
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

The LEE filters fit on the Cokin "P" holders. If you already have the cokin "P" holder, all you need are the LEE filters, which are cheaper than the singh-rays by about $20. Here is more info http://www.leefiltersusa.com/NewCameraProducts/CamNewProdPseries.html

B&H and other stores charge $10-20 extra for each filter. If you decide to go with Singh-Ray, order from them directly. Same with Lee filters as well.

As far as holding, you can use "gaffers tape" to hold the filters over the lens, if you don't want to get a holder.

Hope this if helpful.

Edited by Sunman on Aug 02, 2004 at 01:47 PM GMT

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:47 PM

hiepng
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Charles, buying Lee (or Sing-Ray) as Mahesh suggested is a good idea. I heard the cheap type (Cokin) can cause color cast.

You might consider Lee Filters for P series Holders. I think the P holder costs less than $10. And some days ago, I read some posts on this FM forum saying that using P holder on 10D and 17-40mm does have any vignette.

BTW, I am not "pro". I just start using ND grad for 2 months, and I feel I really need them.

Aug 02, 2004 at 03:47 PM

DonH
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

You might consider Lee Filters for P series Holders.

I'd suggest using the full-size Lee filters 100x150mm, especially with the 77mm lens. If you want to use the Cokin P series mounting system, use their Z-Pro series adapter (Cokin P362).

Aug 02, 2004 at 04:16 PM

charlesk
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen! I am going to save this thread. It appears that to do this properly is going to cost me a couple hundred, not sure I am ready to that quite yet, but I am going to consider it. --c

Aug 02, 2004 at 04:53 PM

Bill Lawrence
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Charles,

Mahesh's recent series shows the value of split ND filters. You wanted some pro's and cons, so here's what I've found in my not-very-extensive experience. I'm sure others will chime in.

The split ND filters are great as long as there is (more-or-less) a line in the frame you can bury the split in. I've had some difficulty, say, with a prominent tree sticking into the sky in the foreground. However, if you have a good horizon or some other line to bury the split in, then you might as well do the work in taking the photo, and save yourself the work in processing.

Digital blending (i.e. exposing for sky and exposing for shadow) is a great option in those circumstances, where you want the split in the neutral density filter to be a weird shape. You'll want to make sure you're using a tripod so that you get exactly the same shot for both your bright and your dark exposure. On something that isn't really wide latitude of exposure, I've sometimes found that making an overexposure and an underexposure of a single raw file, and blending the results, is easier to deal with than fussing with curves and masks on one single file.

Digital blending does *not* work well (IME) if there is a lot of motion. Is that tree in the foreground blowing in the wind? Then you may wind up getting weird haloes from trying to blend something that wasn't in the same place on both exposures. For situations like this the split ND filters are definitely the way to go.

Hope that helps!
Bill

Aug 02, 2004 at 05:00 PM

PKuglin
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

What about the HiTech ones. Do they make 100mm versions like the Lee system that fit the Cokin Z-Pro system?

Aug 02, 2004 at 08:20 PM

thapamd
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

PKuglin wrote:
What about the HiTech ones. Do they make 100mm versions like the Lee system that fit the Cokin Z-Pro system?

I've tried the HiTech ones, and weren't too impressed with 'em...left a strange color cast and were pretty thin and flimsy, IMO.

Aug 02, 2004 at 08:35 PM

jsandfort
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

I've got the HiTech and they OK for me. I haven't noticed any color casts (but it might be there and I didn't see). I didn't want to spend a small fortune since I still blend. Usually from the same RAW file if I can. I did get a Sing-Ray polarizer and it's awesome.

Aug 02, 2004 at 09:59 PM

Sunny Sra
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Just don't get cokin. I'm heading over to the Lee filters HQ tomorrow to pickup some GND and warming filters. They are definitly expensive (Lee and Singh Ray), but worth the investment.
Get the cokin holders and Lee filters.

Aug 02, 2004 at 10:24 PM

Lavish
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Thanks for posting a thread like this, I am not trying to change the subject just trying to add some questions that might help with decision making.
One thing I have noticed about blending images from a single raw file (with my limited experience) is, sometimes you can miss some of the detail that a bracketed shot would expose for, not sure if I am on track. Any thoughts on this?

Also I started with a Sing-Ray 2-Stop soft and a 3-Stop hard and it seems to cover the gamut for most everything I have had a chance to use it on..
-------------
Now for a quick question
When it comes to trees or building that show prominently in the horizon. Because the object needs to be exposed the same as the rest of the foreground how do you expose for it using a Grad ND filter or should you use one at all in this type of situation. The object in the upper part of the sky/horizon would be underexposed hence leaving evidence of the gradient shift..
I see that Bill Lawrence touched on this subject, but seems to have had as he said “some difficulty” with the subject, anyway I would like to see what other have to say about this type of situation.

*Side note
Mahesh thank you for the reply in your Palouse thread, this is the first time I have had to sit down and reply to anything.. thanks for the info

Aug 02, 2004 at 10:35 PM

thapamd
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Lavish wrote:
Thanks for posting a thread like this, I am not trying to change the subject just trying to add some questions that might help with decision making.
One thing I have noticed about blending images from a single raw file (with my limited experience) is, sometimes you can miss some of the detail that a bracketed shot would expose for, not sure if I am on track. Any thoughts on this?

Also I started with a Sing-Ray 2-Stop soft and a 3-Stop hard and it seems to cover the gamut for most everything I have had a chance to use it on..
-------------
Now...Show more →

First of all, you're welcome

You're correct, there is only so much detail in a RAW file, much less then in a bracketed shot. A RAW file is good for about 1/2 stop either way from your original exposure (some claim 1 stop either way, but I don't find that to be true within my tolerance).

Believe it or not, a good soft graduated filter will leave almost no discernable trace at all (especially if you've chosen the strength wisely), even on the uneven horizon. Because the change is so gradual, the eyes have a difficult time noticing the change. The trick is, as I mentioned, to use a filter that's not too strong. However, if you do notice a bit of difference, you can always do a little dodging or burning or you could make multi exosure with the grad ND filter in place. I've had a lot of luck with grad ND filters. I'm sure you've seen that many of my shots have uneven horizons, but the use of grad ND filter is not discernable (not to my or most people's eyes, anyway).

Aug 02, 2004 at 10:48 PM

PKuglin
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

They are definitly expensive (Lee and Singh Ray), but worth the investment. Get the cokin holders and Lee filters.

So which size if you are using the Cokin holder? is the P size (85mm) large enough for 77mm lens?

Aug 02, 2004 at 11:43 PM

jsandfort
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

Phil, I'm using the P size for my 77mm lenses. No problems for both 1.6 and 1.3 crops.

Aug 02, 2004 at 11:45 PM

Lavish
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Thoughts on grad ND filters?

The Cokin P holders are all 85mm as far as I know, just pick up a 77mm P adapter ring or whatever size thread you need for the lens your useing.
I picked up an extra 67mm adapter ring for my 70-200 just incase..

However I have seen a few threads that suggest buying a low profile cokin P holder for your wide-angle shots, becuase vignetting was a concern. I have the regular Pholder and I haven't seen any problems wth my 17-40
The low profile adapter only holds one filter at a time, but I am not a fan of stacking glass anyway so that shouldn't be much of a problem. IMHO
Hope that helps

Aug 02, 2004 at 11:58 PM

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