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Archive 2012 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...

  
 
Exdsc
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p.3 #1 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


I think this issue of RAW compression is the dark side of photography market. Most people who even have good computer knowledge automatically assume RAW = uncompressed or lossless compressed, but in actuality RAW is simply a name given to the data which the sensor captures, the file format of the camera maker is the one which decides to compress that data or leave it as it is.

Everyone who have access to DSLRs with different compression options should do a test themselves, for their own peace of mind.

Personally I'm really annoyed because recently I bought a Nikon V1, and despite its tiny sensor and mp count, it still offers compressed RAW files with no option for uncompressed RAW, and this camera was prized at almost $1000 when released. Although I got mine for $399 I still feel that this is complete bs and maybe the last straw with Nikon as far as I'm concerned.




Nov 01, 2012 at 09:44 AM
carstenw
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p.3 #2 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


You need to verify whether it is lossy or not. Non-lossy compression is a good thing, it reduces read and write time, and of course, space. If Nikon is including non-lossy compression on the 1 system, then you are getting upset at a problem which doesn't exist!


Nov 01, 2012 at 09:51 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #3 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


If I were a Nikon 1 user, I'd be more pissed about the general IQ problems rather than lossy raws.


Nov 01, 2012 at 09:57 AM
Exdsc
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p.3 #4 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


carstenw wrote:
You need to verify whether it is lossy or not. Non-lossy compression is a good thing, it reduces read and write time, and of course, space. If Nikon is including non-lossy compression on the 1 system, then you are getting upset at a problem which doesn't exist!


In Nikon webpage it say compressed, and that is lossy compression in Nikon lingo. When its lossless or uncompressed it will mention it on the Nikon webpage as it does in the case of high-end models - even D7000.



Nov 01, 2012 at 10:01 AM
Exdsc
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p.3 #5 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


FlyPenFly wrote:
If I were a Nikon 1 user, I'd be more pissed about the general IQ problems rather than lossy raws.


The IQ of 1 for web is fine and its a P&S so not that much to complain.

The annoyance is that it could be better.



Nov 01, 2012 at 10:03 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #6 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Exdsc wrote:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1157987

Sony NEX7 for example really compresses the heck of its RAW files, http://diglloyd.com/blog/2011/20111228_1-SonyNEX7-8bit.html


oh no! lloyd says that the NEX-7 uses a RAW compression that is unnoticeable and produces better detail at base iso than the 5DII! THE HORROR! you should definitely pick a camera that produces uncompressed but worse files at base iso to maintain the purity of your bytes...

sorry, i never get anti-compression arguments, especially because they're usually complaining about lossless compression.



Nov 01, 2012 at 10:33 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #7 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


12 bit vs 14 bit makes a much bigger difference in IQ than lossy raws from what I've seen.


Nov 01, 2012 at 10:36 AM
Exdsc
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p.3 #8 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


sebboh wrote:
oh no! lloyd says that the NEX-7 uses a RAW compression that is unnoticeable and produces better detail at base iso than the 5DII! THE HORROR! you should definitely pick a camera that produces uncompressed but worse files at base iso to maintain the purity of your bytes...

sorry, i never get anti-compression arguments, especially because they're usually complaining about lossless compression.


A vast majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between CD quality music and mp3, because they play the music in crappy systems and their ears lack the sensitivity and training to know the difference. or their music is not the sort that will benefit from high fidelity.


Think of it in those terms. One has to have a criterion for "quality" before talking about quality.







Nov 01, 2012 at 10:47 AM
sebboh
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p.3 #9 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Exdsc wrote:
A vast majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between CD quality music and mp3, because they play the music in crappy systems and their ears lack the sensitivity and training to know the difference. or their music is not the sort that will benefit from high fidelity.

Think of it in those terms. One has to have a criterion for "quality" before talking about quality.




i don't really want to get into this, but i think your analogy is a good one. there are lots of music compression methods besides the decades old mp3, some of which are lossless and some of which are lossy but the differences are beyond the detection abilities of humans. the same is true of image compression algorithms.

my question is why would anyone choose the OM-D over the NEX-7 because the NEX-7 has lossy RAW when the NEX-7 still has better raw image quality? the compression of the NEX-7's raw never makes it's image quality worse than the OM-D. there are lots of reasons to choose the OM-D over the NEX-7, but detail at base iso (where compression should be most noticeable) isn't one of them.



Nov 01, 2012 at 11:09 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #10 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


double post

Edited on Nov 01, 2012 at 06:58 PM · View previous versions



Nov 01, 2012 at 12:05 PM
douglasf13
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p.3 #11 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Exdsc wrote:
A vast majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between CD quality music and mp3, because they play the music in crappy systems and their ears lack the sensitivity and training to know the difference. or their music is not the sort that will benefit from high fidelity.

Think of it in those terms. One has to have a criterion for "quality" before talking about quality.



True, but comparing mp3 to CD quality isn't what is happening in the Sony files. Sony's compressed raws are more like ALAC, which I can guarantee that you'd not be able to distinguish from CD quality.

NEX raws are essentially the Sony cRAW that has been an option in their DSLRs from the beginning, and, having seen and read about a million comparisons between RAW and cRAW over the last six years, I can guarantee that it is very, very difficult to tell the difference between them. You can really only start to see a difference if you push the cRAW files to the extreme, like boosting the shadows +5EV or something.

Compressed or not, I'd certainly choose the output of the NEX-7 over any aps-c or smaller sensor.

p.s. I don't think anyone complains about the NEX-7's color. It is fantastic. The complaints are in regards to color shift with wide angle M lenses, which is another topic entirely.



Nov 01, 2012 at 12:06 PM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #12 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Go rogue and get a Pentax Q.


Nov 01, 2012 at 06:53 PM
mawz
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p.3 #13 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Lloyd is showing quite clearly that he isn't a Software Engineer . Lossy compression doesn't necessarily mean the sort of data butchery associated with JPEG. The NEX-7 files are fairly mildly compressed, coming in at around 66% of the uncompressed file size. That's a very mild ratio for lossless, and if modern compression techniques are used it's entirely possible that no usable data is lost.

Note the NEX-7 has 12 bit RAWs.



Nov 01, 2012 at 07:13 PM
millsart
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p.3 #14 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


mawz wrote:
Lloyd is showing quite clearly that he isn't a Software Engineer . Lossy compression doesn't necessarily mean the sort of data butchery associated with JPEG. The NEX-7 files are fairly mildly compressed, coming in at around 66% of the uncompressed file size. That's a very mild ratio for lossless, and if modern compression techniques are used it's entirely possible that no usable data is lost.

Note the NEX-7 has 12 bit RAWs.




Lloyd to me is basically a salty guy with an opinion who just so happens to charge of a fee for it, and to make sure he stays relevent enough to keep getting that fee, he throws some "knowledge" out there from time to time.

He's the "alt" Ken Rockwell for the high end crowd



Nov 01, 2012 at 07:22 PM
mtdydobe
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p.3 #15 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


Dave McGaughey wrote:
You and everyone else. All three systems have significant holes/flaws.

Here is, briefly, how I see it. (I have further thoughts on Sony vs. Fuji in a blog post I wrote a bit ago: http://www.dmcgaughey.com/2012/10/07/another-camera-for-2012/)

OMD (never held one, just based on user comments): great AF, very good lens lineup, sensor is too small, fair number of complaints about the buttons being really annoying to work with
Sony (Nex-7): Very comfortable to hold. Great image quality (especially at lower iso) in terms of resolution and dynamic range. Interface a bit fiddly. Body didn't hold up well under use (buttons got looser,
...Show more

I can counter the OMD complaint - OMD with grip is just about right. No issue with buttons, but I'm not huge handed. I've been using Nikon DSLRs. I've had an OMD for a couple of weeks now and a dream to carry and no issues, using fast primes, with speed and image quality.



Nov 01, 2012 at 11:51 PM
neilvan
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p.3 #16 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


"Invest"?




Nov 02, 2012 at 04:12 AM
cputeq
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p.3 #17 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


cannpope wrote:
HELP!!

I am confused on which smaller camera system to invest in. I am selling my DSLR gear for a smaller system and I am totally stumped on what to invest in. I've been researching the Oly OMD, the Fuji X Pro 1 or xe-1, and the NEX systems, but I am at a loss. I know that a smaller camera will not give me the same results as a full frame DSLR, but I still want great image quality. The OMD images look flat to me, but I'm scared of the X Pro-1's sluggy focusing.
I want the X Pro-1
...Show more

GIve yourself some good rental time with each setup if you're so stumped. I for one would go crazy with a crappy AF camera, so I'm not sure I would like the XPro1, even though the IQ is outstanding.

I'm an OMD and GX1 owner here and I love the setup so far. There are a few complaints, sure, but I find complaints with any system. My major one is that I really wish the OMD or GX1 would do ISO 50, even if it was extended, so that shooting wide open in brighter conditions would not require ND filters.


I'm also not sure what you mean by "flat" images from the OMD - Perhaps you're a fast 35mm fan? I say that because 35mm fast to me looks more "3D" compared to longer lengths, and a fast 35 is what m43 lacks unless you count the MF Voigtlander 17.5 f0.95

I've got plenty of shots from both of my cameras that definitely lack this "flat" aspect, at least to me - I can upload a few samples if you wish.



Nov 02, 2012 at 05:24 AM
MarcG19
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p.3 #18 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


No experience with the other models, I have well over 3000 pics with the OM-D since Oly delivered it to me on release day. I have no image quality complaints, even at 100%. I won't say it's perfect, but in my post processing I've never had any real complaints about the lens and sensor. Mind you, I'm not terribly picky, especially since most of my output is to iPad and Facebook (with only occasional large prints for my own use), and I've never had D800s and Zeiss lenses. I'm also looking from a landscape/street/general photography perspective. I'm not shooting weddings or action with this camera. I do prefer my Nikon D2xs and Tokina 11-16, especially since anything serious I do is at base ISO, but that's a much heavier package. A pro would have to judge his client base and his costs, but I think a competent photographer can do very well with it. I also play around with it at ISO 6400 and I haven't really disappointed by it at that ISO, though there is clearly often noise, lost dynamic range, and color shifts, and again recall that I'm not extremely picky.

[ETA: I have long fingers on a big hand. I don't like the OM-D's buttons, and I don't like its menu system, but I can live with them]

I think the m4/3's greatest strength is the variety of lenses, and this alone IMO is a decent reason to choose the system. With any of the Oly primes (I have 12 f/2, a 60 f/2.8 - the latter is looking to be a very very good lens), the Panny 2.8 zooms or the Voightlanders (LOVE the 25mm f/0.95, much more than any of the Nikkor 50/35 f/1.8s or f/1.4s on their respective 50mm equivalent mounts), I think the lens quality and variety is excellent, and even with 3-4 lenses it's really portable. One really nice thing is that these things are usually at least half the size of an APS-C equivalent, and if you really want to go small an OM-D with a Panny 14mm prime is really small and fairly sharp. Get one of their new smaller cameras (or even better a previous generation smaller camera) and you have something the size of a point and shoot, with a lot of interchangeable lens options.

I rejected the Sony because of the limited lens selection. Fuji will soon have IMO a sufficient range of lenses, but I wanted to start running with a reasonably full kit months ago, and didn't want to wait. For my part, I flirt with getting one of the smaller cameras as a backup body (previous generation bodies at Cameta are waay cheaper than and have better performance than all but the biggest sensor point and shoots) - again, with the small pancakes like the 14mm, these small m4/3cameras are almost small point and shoot sized. But beyond that, I have no intention of upgrading my OM-D anytime in the next year, especially since the market is in such flux. I still keep my NIkon DX kit, though.




Nov 02, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Exdsc
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p.3 #19 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


To sebboh and douglasf13: In regards to RAW compression in NEX-7.

I don't have a NEX-7 and I don't wish to make its owners feel bad, but when NEX-7 applies lossy compression to its RAW files, then the question is are those files any longer RAW? RAW data means unaltered data (no addition/subtraction), when some of its data is subtracted its not RAW data/file.

If NEX-7 files are lossy compressed to 60% of their original size, is that mean the camera is also actually a 15mp camera compared to 24mp?


My reason for getting really irate at Nikon is as simple as this. The Nikon D5100 has the same sensor at D7000. So, if someone does not want the fancy AF and other stuff of D7000 and simply want to use the IQ of the sensor, they have to pay $500 more to get the D7000 because D5100 RAW files are lossy compressed... But more annoyingly every forum expert will recommend D5100 to people because "it has the same sensor as D7000!"







Nov 02, 2012 at 12:27 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.3 #20 · Confused on which smaller camera system to invest in...


You have a fundamental misunderstanding of RAW. It doesn't mean unaltered data at all, period. There is no such thing as unaltered data when you're talking about DAC.

Ps. You won't be able to tell the difference between a d7000 shot file and a d5100 even in prints. The handling however and viewfinder are very noticeable.



Nov 02, 2012 at 12:34 PM
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