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Archive 2012 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling

  
 
David Baldwin
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p.10 #1 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


I think that some of the disappointment here is about opportunity cost. If a camera is released at a particular price point, and it omits features people wanted, well, they are going to have to wait years probably to have any chance of a replacement camera which might include what they wanted, at that price.

I have a 5D2, and a 7D. In different ways they are wonderful cameras, but each has flaws I would like to address. The 7D is an excellent body, and I've loved its AF. But it is crop. I love my 5D2, its given me wonderful IQ but I have definitely lost shots because of the less than impressive outer focus points.

Now I could buy a 5D3 to unite the best features of both my bodies but I confess money is an issue for me. I could even wait till the 5D4 is announced and buy a 5D3 cheaply, in 3 years or so.

But life is short, and I admit it is a little galling to see what Nikon can offer in their D600 at the more reasonable price point. More AF, more resolution, (presumably) Sony sensor. These things matter to many of us. Against the D600 yes I feel the 6D is disappointing. I'm sure it will take great pictures, but it looks like a warmed over 5D2, and after all these years that means the 6D should be ALOT cheaper than the £1800 release price. Because it appears to be offering yesterdays features.

IMHO



Sep 23, 2012 at 01:59 AM
rrxjon
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p.10 #2 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


And gripe begat gripe. And so it goes unto infinity!

Gochugogi, I'm really starting to appreciate your quips.

One of the reasons I read FM/gear is to find out what people are bitching about; from competent practitioners, it's a great way to research gear IMO, & acts as a riptide to the marketing. Here on FM, I find there's no real shortage of competence. But there is an undertow of complaint/



Sep 23, 2012 at 02:01 AM
RobertLynn
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p.10 #3 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


This thread is way out of hand.


Sep 23, 2012 at 03:07 AM
snooked123
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p.10 #4 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


Honestly, those of us who want to whine, just let us be. And since the rest of the guys are good at ignoring things they don't like anyways, just ignore us. We will whine and whine and eventually shut up as in the end we will be stuck with four years of 6D's awesome autofocus plus we will have to put up with people who will take shots at f4-5.6 using just the center point and say 6D's autofocus rocks who are the crazies that think it's autofocs sucks .

Four years from now we will get another camera with that 2003 autofocus and we will start whining again .



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:10 AM
LXShooter
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p.10 #5 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


Whoa whoa whoa...please leave us T2i guys out of this. We don't need no stinking FF. We're satisfied with the video mode.


Sep 23, 2012 at 06:44 AM
StarNut
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p.10 #6 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling



In the competition between the 6D and the D600, I expect Canon to come out on the short end of the stick. If they don't, it'll show their marketing is better than their design - which is not something we photographers ought to be happy about.


You guys who spend so much time here whining about Canon's offering make two principal mistakes:

1. You seem to think that Canon cares what a few people say on an internet forum; Canon (like any other large manufacturer) only cares about sales, not about whining. As a side matter, few of us pay any attention to whining (well, other than whining back )

2. You seem to think that these two products (the 6D and the D600; or the 5D3/D800) are in "competition." They really aren't. Canon has a full line of DSLR products; that line is, to some extent, in competition with Nikon's line of DSLR products, but only the entry-level products can be said to be in full-time direct competition. Practically nobody enters the DSLR world by jumping into full frame; the vast majority of us (who, in total, only make up a very small part of the DSLR market, which itself only makes up a small part of the digital camera market); we make the decision when we buy our first DSLR whether we go with Canon, Nikon, or a third party. After that, relatively few will ever switch; most are committed to the original choice.

I entered the DSLR world in 2004 when I bought a Canon 10D, after decades using film. I then, over the next six years, acquired a decent array of Canon lenses, so that, when I decided it was time to upgrade, there was no sense in even considering a Nikon product; the D700 was not, generally speaking, in competition with the 5D2. Similarly, very few, when upgrading from their 40D to FF now, will consider dumping their Canon glass and to buy the D600.

To an extent, one entering the DSLR world may consider the entire line, but I suspect that's fairly rare. Canon will have to make sure, over time, that their FF offerings are, overall, competitive with others available, or they risk a long-term drain of customers; but whether the D800 as marginally better than the 5D3 (which is debatable), or the 6D is marginally worse than the 600D (which is all useless speculation at this point), is quite irrelevant to "competition."



Sep 23, 2012 at 10:42 AM
Mr.Lindy
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p.10 #7 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


Back in January 2009 I added D700 & 14-24/2.8 to my Canon 5D classic kit.
As time passed I rounded out my Nikon lenses which made sense as they are all so easily adapted to Eos Mount.

It amazes me Nikon D600, D800 and D4 all autofocus f8 at this moment while ,I think, Canon does not except for the soon to drop off the system 1Ds Mark III.
Well except for Authur Morris when he's using a Tokina 1.4 TC on his 1Dx.

Heck, My 13 year old Eos-3 film camera autofocuses my Canon 300mm f4 IS w/ Canon 2x TC.

Canon makes great gear, been well made straight out of their boxes.

For me 5D III for $3500 is unacceptable. Seeing the $2749 Adorama 5D III via ebay last week where some 818 buyers got one or more than one 5D III was eyeopening.

Had I not bought a brand new 5D II the week before for $1838, maybe I'd have ponied up for one. Seems everyone got a great deal who bought 5DIII for $740 under MAP. Fun times, I'll be on my toes next time ebay wants to bankroll a Canon promo.

Personally, I wish Canon 6D had articulated screen. I'm loving my 5DII, so no chance I'll buy ever a 6D without the fancy jointed screen that Panasonic, Olympus and Sony include thesedays & a feature some have included for years.

If anything, I'm happy I get to shop elsewhere the next two or three years. I'm well aware having owned eos since 2008 that the 5D III & 6D will stay current thru 2015.

For me its either going to be a Panny GH-3 or D600 or possibly D800 once Nikon gets a handle on the QC AF issues including the formerly stellar Nikon USA factory repairs. The sad stories of people sending D800 in multiple times gives me pause. Or lets say Canon drops 5D III minimum advertised price to $2500-$2600 in next 12 months, then they got my attention and I suspect a million other people's attention & opened wallets too.

Then again, I could spend nothing on brand new Canon & Nikon next two or three years cause the gear I own of theirs is that good. No problems for me.

Bottomline, If Nikon D600 had included an articulated screen I'd already be shooting with it.








Edited on Sep 23, 2012 at 03:21 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2012 at 02:45 PM
mttran
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p.10 #8 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


RobertLynn wrote:
This thread is way out of hand.


+1...those cameras are just tools



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:16 PM
Ralph Conway
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p.10 #9 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


What Canon gave us this year is 5D III, 1D X and (eventually) 6D.
5D III is imo the best existing all around camera.
1D X is imo the best existing sports and wildlife camera.
6D is imo the best existing AL camera.

One really calls this "crippeling"?

What Nikon gave us this year is the highest resolution and best DR DSLR.
And a great sports camera.
And a great featured FF entry body.

Why not just choosing what one needs instead of whining what one would like to have instead?

Ralph



Sep 23, 2012 at 04:02 PM
wilt
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p.10 #10 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


RobertLynn wrote:
I don't want to stick up for canon, because I have my own beef (spot metering linked to af point, and shutter count) but if it's not the target market it's not the target market.

I'll say this though, seems odd the 7d has such good af, at a lower price point.



I had read that the 6D was effectively an 'entry level FF format camera'. As such, the desire for a larger format without the sophistication of controls would seem to be suitable.

After all, the 7D is a high end prosumer APS-C format camera. Smaller format, better functions and controls.

Format size and 'for the professional' don't go hand in hand...there were entry level 4x5 film cameras as well as very sophisticated control 4x5 sheet film cameras for large format. There were entry level 645 cameras and higher end 645 cameras, too. So we have entry-level FF and high end FF cameras as well.



Sep 23, 2012 at 04:33 PM
MintMar
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p.10 #11 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


Gunzorro wrote:

[snip]


MintMar -- "And I don't think that people here want 1Ds for a Rebel price." Actually, you CAN get a 1Ds for a T3i price!


Yes, I know. The one which goes all wheezy to ISO 1250 and eats the NiMH batteries in no time. But that's not what I meant. The "everything for nothing" one of the defensive arguments against "whiners", and which is obviously not true.

The technology advances. Heck, Canon even made "FF entry," oh wow. So the FF has finally come down to the "entry level". Yet in the AF department Canon behave as if technology somehow didn't progress at all... Single number of AF points, only one cross? That's just so 2005, entry or not. That is the main problem which I see.

Okay, I give them some points for -3EV. It's like giving a car weak brakes, but at the same time giving it a solid anchor which stops it almost immediately... :-) But to be honest, I'd rather see them test -3EV on some Rebel, not $2000 camera, which would be IMO better balanced with 7D AF at least.




Sep 24, 2012 at 04:13 AM
goosemang
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p.10 #12 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


in all fairness didn't canon have awesome auto focus in some of their non-digital cameras like a decade and a half ago?

they've been metering this stuff out based on how much you'll fork over for years.



Sep 24, 2012 at 07:41 AM
MintMar
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p.10 #13 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


goosemang wrote:
in all fairness didn't canon have awesome auto focus in some of their non-digital cameras like a decade and a half ago?

they've been metering this stuff out based on how much you'll fork over for years.


They did. 1998, EOS-3 with 45pt f/8 AF. Then as D30 is about to enter, somebody clicks the REW button and D30 comes with puny 3 pt AF (less than contemporary film EOS REBEL 2000)...



Sep 24, 2012 at 09:26 AM
BluesWest
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p.10 #14 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


You seem to think that these two products (the 6D and the D600; or the 5D3/D800) are in "competition." They really aren't.

Ridiculous comment. Of course these two products are in competition. They target exactly the same market, at the same price point, and were announced within days of each other.

John



Sep 24, 2012 at 11:00 AM
StarNut
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p.10 #15 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


BluesWest wrote:
Ridiculous comment. Of course these two products are in competition. They target exactly the same market, at the same price point, and were announced within days of each other.

John


Shows how much you know about baseball....

Two products are "in competition" if, and only if, the typical purchaser of either one would seriously consider both before making their choice. Similarly, they are in "the same market" if, and only if, the typical purchaser would seriously consider both before making their choice. Very, very few people moving up to full frame will seriously consider both; the vast majority of potential purchasers are already invested in enough glass/accessories that they won't even consider the other manufacturer's product at that stage; they will only be considering the various FF offerings of "their" manufacturer. The "market" for the Canon product is those who would be moving up from a Canon crop sensor, already with some good Canon glass; the "market for the Nikon product is those who would be moving up from a Nikon crop sensor, already with some good glass. As I said several time in this absurd thread, vanishingly few people with a nice collection of lenses will seriously consider getting rid of that collection to move to the other side (especially since, for the vast, vast majority of users, the differences between the products is not material).

So they're not really in competition. The lower end DSLR products--the ones which would be the first DSLR one might purchase--are very much in competition; the higher end product are not so much in competition.



Sep 24, 2012 at 11:25 AM
artsupreme
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p.10 #16 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


StarNut wrote:
Shows how much you know about baseball....

Two products are "in competition" if, and only if, the typical purchaser of either one would seriously consider both before making their choice. Similarly, they are in "the same market" if, and only if, the typical purchaser would seriously consider both before making their choice. Very, very few people moving up to full frame will seriously consider both; the vast majority of potential purchasers are already invested in enough glass/accessories that they won't even consider the other manufacturer's product at that stage; they will only be considering the various FF offerings of "their" manufacturer.
...Show more

Man I really hope for your sake you are kidding...otherwise, double face palm and shake head in disbelief.



Sep 24, 2012 at 11:38 AM
MintMar
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p.10 #17 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


artsupreme wrote:
Man I really hope for your sake you are kidding...otherwise, double face palm and shake head in disbelief.


I think there is something to that opinion - because brand switch with a hoard of lenses is always harder than switching a Rebel + kit zoom for similar Nikon/Pentax/whateverelse...

Now all we can do is to vote with the wallet - either in hard way (brand switch) or easier way (not buying what's offered) or super hard (on budget) way - dual system...



Sep 24, 2012 at 12:23 PM
StarNut
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p.10 #18 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


artsupreme wrote:
Man I really hope for your sake you are kidding...otherwise, double face palm and shake head in disbelief.


The only thing better than abject ignorance is aggressive, abject ignorance, Congratulations on your achievement!

The product lines are, generally speaking, competitive. The entry-level products are very much in competition. The upper products can only be (properly) said to be in "competition" to the extent that if either player in this duopoly falls clearly behind in the full frame offerings, and stays that way for long, the entire line becomes less attractive as one to invest in.

But only the whiners here take seriously some slight differences as product cycles work their way through. And only people with nothing else in their lives spend substantive time and attention whining about a camera that hasn't even been released yet.



Sep 24, 2012 at 12:37 PM
artsupreme
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p.10 #19 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


StarNut wrote:
Shows how much you know about baseball....

Two products are "in competition" if, and only if, the typical purchaser of either one would seriously consider both before making their choice. Similarly, they are in "the same market" if, and only if, the typical purchaser would seriously consider both before making their choice. Very, very few people moving up to full frame will seriously consider both; the vast majority of potential purchasers are already invested in enough glass/accessories that they won't even consider the other manufacturer's product at that stage; they will only be considering the various FF offerings of "their" manufacturer.
...Show more


Before this thread gets locked, do we have a hall of shame section here on FM? We have a nominee for the 2012 winner...



Sep 24, 2012 at 12:41 PM
jorkata
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p.10 #20 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling


StarNut wrote:
Two products are "in competition" if, and only if, the typical purchaser of either one would seriously consider both before making their choice. Similarly, they are in "the same market" if, and only if, the typical purchaser would seriously consider both before making their choice. Very, very few people moving up to full frame will seriously consider both;


In your narrow point of view, you are completely ignoring first time buyers and buyers moving from another system (e.g. Pentax, Sony, 4/3s, etc.).
Looking at how the 6D is spec'd, it looks more targeted at these buyers than upgraders.

... the vast majority of potential purchasers are already invested in enough glass/accessories that they won't even consider the other manufacturer's product at that stage; they will only be considering the various FF offerings of "their" manufacturer.

Very likely.
And what does the 6D offer to 60D and 7D upgraders - a better sensor coupled with a worse AF system.
Excellent.

So they're not really in competition. The lower end DSLR products--the ones which would be the first DSLR one might purchase--are very much in competition; the higher end product are not so much in competition.

So, 11-point AF system with a single cross-point is high end .

Canon marketing owns you man. They really, really do .


Edited on Sep 24, 2012 at 12:43 PM · View previous versions



Sep 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM
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