The set of Rebel users is much larger and vaster than the set of enthusiasts that the 6D is marketed to.
Yes, many people buying a 6D may have started with a Rebel. That does not make it "a full frame for Rebel users". That line of argument is like saying that heroin is a grown up drug for beer drinkers because most heroin users have enjoyed beer in the past.
Even if many 6D users started with Rebels, most Rebel users will never migrate to full frame and will be very happy with their Rebels.
p.3 #3 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
MintMar wrote:
You will find another great gem, he basically says that they could not make cross sensors on 6D because the central cross was too big for the enhanced sensitivity. Precious!
Pentax have managed to offer 9 cross points in their 11 point AF system and -3 to +18 EV AF in the new K5 II.
p.3 #4 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
MintMar wrote:
Honestly, I don't remember this being brought up when some 1D was released, 7D released or 5D3 released. It's a bit exaggerated.
Mostly it's brought up because Canon mostly have a history record of playing Mr. Scrooge of the AF department in the digital SLRs.
I was speaking generally of a camera being considered crippled because feature X was left out of camera "A" when the put that feature in camera "B,' not just concerning auto focus. You're right though if we limit it to autofocus, it's been much less of an issue. Except that the issue was already beat to death with the 5DII.
p.3 #5 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
There is a simple solution,
Three words
Do not buy (adding a fourth) it.
For those that think Nikon has it right, it truly is no more than a purchase away. Yep, you'll likely lose money switching, but you'll be happier (allegedly). Who said money doesn't buy happiness?
p.3 #6 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
RobertLynn wrote:
There is a simple solution,
Three words
Do not buy (adding a fourth) it.
You've nailed it, I think that's exactly what's gonna happen. If it will not outperform, say 7D AF central HP cross AF pt. performace, which is said to have AF working range: -0.5 - 18 EV (at 23°C, ISO 100).
I don't know about you, folks, but I tend to shoot with central AF pt exclusively most of the time anyway.
For those that think Nikon has it right, it truly is no more than a purchase away. Yep, you'll likely lose money switching, but you'll be happier (allegedly). Who said money doesn't buy happiness?
p.3 #7 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
Monito wrote:
That's very different from what you wrote.
No it's not. If there was written: The 6D is a step to FF from a rebel series camera, then I can surely write that 6D is a FF for Rebel users - it doesn't imply that all of them should/must/willbeforcedto upgrade, does it? I don't seem to remember that I wrote something like "compulsory" or similar things.
The set of Rebel users is much larger and vaster than the set of enthusiasts that the 6D is marketed to.
Yes, many people buying a 6D may have started with a Rebel. That does not make it "a full frame for Rebel users". That line of argument is like saying that heroin is a grown up drug for beer drinkers because most heroin users have enjoyed beer in the past.
Even if many 6D users started with Rebels, most Rebel users will never migrate to full frame and will be very happy with their Rebels.
p.3 #8 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
jeraldcook wrote:
I was speaking generally of a camera being considered crippled because feature X was left out of camera "A" when the put that feature in camera "B,' not just concerning auto focus. You're right though if we limit it to autofocus, it's been much less of an issue. Except that the issue was already beat to death with the 5DII.
Yeah, and I thought it would stay finally dead with 5D2, when I saw first 7D and then 5D3. But it came back with 6D... Sometimes I feel that today's 6D was one of the first drafts for 5D2 successor back in 2008. But then Canon found out that against future D800 it would absolutely not sell, so they resurrected it with "affordable FF" concept.
p.3 #9 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
MintMar wrote: It was a decision that we felt that this type of camera in this particular user group, auto focus performance is not 100% critical.
Monito wrote:
That does not mean it is "crippled". It means that the market doesn't want to pay for extra AF points. They don't come free. People complain enough about the price of cameras as it is. Put more points in and more people will complain about the price.
The camera was never intended to be marketed to someone as skilled and well equipped as yourself.
MintMar wrote:
Well if 6D is a FF for Rebel users,
Monito wrote:
It's not.
Monito, I've been following this debate back and forth and I'm just curious, if the 6D is not marketed to skilled photographers such as MintMar and it's not meant for Rebel users either then who is Canon marketing this thing for?
p.3 #10 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
MintMar wrote:
Sometimes I feel that today's 6D was one of the first drafts for 5D2 successor back in 2008. But then Canon found out that against future D800 it would absolutely not sell, so they resurrected it with "affordable FF" concept.
p.3 #11 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
Iris Chrome wrote: <snip>
Monito, I've been following this debate back and forth and I'm just curious, if the 6D is not marketed to skilled photographers such as MintMar and it's not meant for Rebel users either then who is Canon marketing this thing for?
I guess it is meant as a backup body for current 1Ds MkIV users.
p.3 #12 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
If they had just dropped the 60d or t4i AF points in there (I know it's not that simple), they would have avoided 75% of this complaining. If they had used the 7d AF system, they would have avoided 95% (5% will complain about anything). the fact that they downgraded from those systems is why people are calling it crippled, regardless of to whom it is targeted.
I also expected a popup flash for this segment, but its absence doesn't bother me.
p.3 #13 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
Got to love Canon's response: autofocus is not important on a $2100 camera in anything but low-light so we give you an EV-3 sensor dead center and since the sensor now is so gigantic we can't put anything else of value in there so make do with the lousy peripheral points. Sorry that is what you get for $2100 and if you want a camera where we did manage to put EV-1 cross-type points all over the place, just shell out $1400 more.
p.3 #14 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
"It looks like there are some real dummies working for Canon who are allowed to give interviews: autofocus not "critical" in a $2,000 camera ? Does one have to spend $3,500 on a Canon camera today in order to get a functioning autofocus?"
What Petkal said.
My own view is that the 6D isn't much of a bargain at £1800.
p.3 #16 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
I tried... I REALLY tried to make sense of what he said by auto focus performance is not 100% critical in the 6D target market, but everytime I come up with an explanation, it's always shot down by the fact that Canon Rebel body having 9 cross type AF. If there's any market where auto focus performance is not 100% critical, it's the beginners market where the Rebel resides.
I also wonder why the interviewer didn't follow up the 24mm and 28mm IS question with why the 24-70L still lacks AF if Mr. Owen felt that Canon's the one who convinced the pros about the benefit of IS in a WA lens.
In contrast, what his explanation on why the 6D doesn't have an articulated LCD and why there aren't more EF-S telephoto lenses made sense. Who needs a 3" articulated LCD when you can use the 4.3" LCD of your phone or even the 10" tablet screen.
p.3 #18 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
kodakeos wrote:
And let me tell you, people spending $3500 on a camera are more important to canon than people buying $1500-2000 cameras.
Not sure if that is true but I strongly suspect it's not the case.... The revenue stream from the entry level dslr's are likely higher then the mid range stuff. The 1 series stuff is more important then mid tier due to advertising and perception.
Having said that... I AM part of their projected market for a cheaper 5D3 FF body but this just looks too much of a compromise to me just off spec - although waiting for some hands on reviews. I think I will likely go with the 5D2 to match with the 7D....
p.3 #19 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
Iris Chrome wrote:
Monito, I've been following this debate back and forth and I'm just curious, if the 6D is not marketed to skilled photographers such as MintMar and it's not meant for Rebel users either then who is Canon marketing this thing for?
p.3 #20 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
I'm with Peter on this - forced market segmentation is a necessity whether we like it or not, but if you look at this in a more distant sense Canon is supplying an £1800 camera with AF specifications that appear nominally below those of a camera half it's price (60D). And they justify it by saying that the AF is an improvement on a predecessor camera that was also underspecified in the same sense, and which sold at around the same price. It is more than a little cynical, even if they throw in a load of bells and whistles in the form of GPS etc.
