p.13 #1 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
Last I checked, Canon made a number of DLSR's not named "7D" at various price points.
Thank you, Captain Obvious, for the crash course in product pricing and positioning.
Interestingly, you claim that you understand product pricing and positioning - and yet, you are quite slow in grasping the contention with the 6D specs in this thread.
So, let me bring you up to speed:
In a market economy, a premium product is typically also the better one.
So, when a manufacturer decides to offer a premium product with inferiors specs than lesser products, this is met with certain amount of negativity from potential buyers.
In our case, this product is the 6D camera from Canon.
Had you been a little more perceptive, you would have taken notice that those voicing negative sentiments are in fact the potential buyers of this camera.
And when potential buyers are creating a negative buzz, this is not good for the product in question.
This, of course, is too much for your slow little brain.
You are forgiven, though, since this is the Internets.
p.13 #3 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
What an inane post!
Last I checked, Canon made a number of DLSR's not named "7D" at various price points. If you're going to "upgrade" from a $1600 crop camera, it's not going to be to a $2100 full frame camera; for that small incremental cost, you're not going to get everything in the 7D, plus a good FF sensor. You can whine about that all the time (as, indeed, you and several others do), but it's the economic reality.
The problem is, that in the past, no one was exactly losing something important when upgrading.
If you went from 300D to say 20D, you didn't lose anything important (AF, shutter speed, buffer, VF, sensor). Then you got from 20D to 5D and again, you didn't lose anything important (for some the internal flash, allright, perhaps FPS but let's say Canon couldn't make the internals tick faster). Then there was 1D and that was the flagship.
But now the path is winding, you gain, you lose, that's not straight, and it is strange. Seems like the path became from straight I to some strange Y ;-) 6D should have been a FF 7D, then the upgrade path would have been straight again.
p.13 #4 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
Krasmar wrote:
7D is great camera indeed ! I love it to bits.
Maybe it is just me [ after reading this thread, maybe not ] , but I felt a bit of let down when I saw the specs for the 6D. Simply because of the AF and SD card slot.
I can understand a feeling of being let down a bit; it's the vituperative way some take this personally, as if Canon did it to spite them, and they're entitled to "better" that I'm reacting to. But, again, Canon has no interest in introducing a camera that will cut significantly into the sales of the 5D3, so this is what they're introducing. Does anyone realistcally expect it to be a commercial failure? I certainly don't.
I do not say that the 6D is rubbish camera though. I just don't like calling it step up from 7D.
As I said in a previous post, I doubt it's meant to be an upgrade path from the 7D; that's what the 5D3 is for.
Is it alternative for people who prefer better IQ?
Most probably, yes. I think we all can see that to be quite certain, really. Landscape shooters will be delighted I guess.
Consider the actual needs of the vast majority of the market for a $2100 full frame camera (as Canon does): Landscape, kids and travel photos. This camera will perform those tasks just fine, I'm very confident (and so is Canon).
Will I buy 6D?
No, I will aim for 5D3 instead.
Exactly Canon's intent. Note, you're not considering a D600 instead, cuz they're not really competitive products (in the obvious sense that very few will seriously consider both when deciding on an entry FF.
Have I considered 5D2?
Yes. If I still had 40D, I guess, I would aim for 5D2 instead.
As they now will consider the 6D, which is probably a somewhat better body than the 5D2.
IMHO, 6D will be great tool people who photograph landscape, architecture and such. ( if the center HP AF pt is really that great ) People who photograph life, action and so on [people like me], will not be satisfied with live-view focusing.
Why are people upset about the 6D?
Well, a] because they see what Nikon released and they feel that they should also have the same choice. b] 'cause they like to be upset, damn it!
p.13 #5 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
You think the D600 is as good as the 5D3? Buy one!!
LooseNut, please don't make false claims of which I've never stated. You can quote anything I actually say, but make sure to use the quote button and do it properly like this:
StarNut wrote:
You seem to think that these two products the 6D and the D600 are in "competition." They really aren't.
p.13 #6 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
Shows how much you know about baseball....
Two products are "in competition" if, and only if, the typical purchaser of either one would seriously consider both before making their choice. Similarly, they are in "the same market" if, and only if, the typical purchaser would seriously consider both before making their choice. Very, very few people moving up to full frame will seriously consider both; the vast majority of potential purchasers are already invested in enough glass/accessories that they won't even consider the other manufacturer's product at that stage; they will only be considering the various FF offerings of "their" manufacturer. The "market" for the Canon product is those who would be moving up from a Canon crop sensor, already with some good Canon glass; the "market for the Nikon product is those who would be moving up from a Nikon crop sensor, already with some good glass. As I said several time in this absurd thread, vanishingly few people with a nice collection of lenses will seriously consider getting rid of that collection to move to the other side (especially since, for the vast, vast majority of users, the differences between the products is not material).
So they're not really in competition. The lower end DSLR products--the ones which would be the first DSLR one might purchase--are very much in competition; the higher end product are not so much in competition. ...Show more →
Talking to friends and reading on the net I seriously question the marked sentence. That said, I do agree with the last sentence, as long as we are only talking about 1D X vs. D4 line.
p.13 #7 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
I've noticed a lot of whining about a camera you've never seen, must less used, and amusing attempts to make fun of arguments you can't refute.
Aaah, but you missed how Canon is marketing the 6D:
"From the creators of Ford Edsel and Pontiac Aztek, comes the new Canon 6D ... ".
p.13 #8 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
artsupreme wrote:
LooseNut, please don't make false claims of which I've never stated. You can quote anything I actually say, but make sure to use the quote button and do it properly like this:
Gee, you might try actually refuting my posts (if you can, which I seriously doubt), instead of repeated childish attacks.
You posted a set of attributes which describes the 5D3. You seem to expect those in the 6D, and claim that they're in the D600. So I suggested you buy one. Apparently, you're not interested in buying one (doubtless because they're really not competitive products).
If you're unable to take good photos with the 6D, I suggest you take some courses. Or go over to Nikon, where you can whine just as much. You might find either path to be helpful.
p.13 #9 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
jorkata wrote:
Aaah, but you missed how Canon is marketing the 6D:
"From the creators of Ford Edsel and Pontiac Aztek, comes the new Canon 6D ... ".
Now I know that I'm not the target market. ROFL
So you're convinced that the 6D will be a colossal failure? Gee, maybe you should offer your services to Canon, since you seem to know the DSLR market so much better than Canon!
By the way, I'm still awaiting a refutation, rather than mere childish personal attacks. Not expecting one, but it might be interesting to see one.
p.13 #10 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
Gee, you might try actually refuting my posts (if you can, which I seriously doubt), instead of repeated childish attacks.
What's there you refute, SpareNut
You claim to understand product positioning - and yet, you fail to acknowledge that it's a mistake to market a premium product with lesser specs that lower-end products.
You also claim that the 6D is targeted for 60D/7D upgraders - when it has an inferior AF system than both.
What other ludicrous claims are you going to make to defend Canon's stupid marketing mistake?
p.13 #11 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
You posted a set of attributes which describes the 5D3. You seem to expect those in the 6D, and claim that they're in the D600.
LooseNut, the set of attributes I posted was that of the D600 exactly, no where ever was the 5D3 mentioned in my posts. There is no need to refute something that is so obvious, thus the comedy. And it continues now that you are clueless about the D600 specs as well, I suggest you take a look, maybe you'll have a realization....
p.13 #12 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
MintMar wrote:
But now the path is winding, you gain, you lose, that's not straight, and it is strange. Seems like the path became from straight I to some strange Y ;-) 6D should have been a FF 7D, then the upgrade path would have been straight again.
[snip]
People buy the 7D for it's wonderful abilities with sports/wildlife. Many of us own the 7D to complement other bodies (thereby having a tool which is optimized for everything we shoot). One camera that has the best of the 7D, with a high quality FF sensor is expensive; it's the 5D3.
No, it's not a linear path any more, but the path is still pretty clear. The 5D3 pretty much does everything the 7D does (and/or the 6D will do), and more. The 6D pretty much does everything the xxD (and/or the various Rebel versions) does, and more. The 1DX is the one camera to rule them all.
People may not like how Canon has specified the three FF entries (obviously), but the market so far has enthusiastically endorsed the 5D3, and I would be shocked if Canon missed its market with the 6D. And that's Canon's job, to please the many (not the few).
p.13 #13 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
artsupreme wrote:
LooseNut, the set of attributes I posted was that of the D600 exactly, no where ever was the 5D3 mentioned in my posts. There is no need to refute something that is so obvious, thus the comedy. And it continues now that you are clueless about the D600 specs as well, I suggest you take a look, maybe you'll have a realization....
Still with the childish name-calling, I see. Kind of shows what a man you are, and what a master-debater, also, I guess...
"More" is a meaningless set of "attributes."
I hesitate to ask, but I'll do it anyway; do you really think that the small differences (in actual use by the target markets) between the D600 and the 6D will make any real difference to the vast, vast majority of users?
And, again, if you do, why not just buy the Nikon product, rather than whining about the Canon product? Could it be because you're too invested in Canon stuff to consider an Nikon camera, however much you may consider the Nikon product to be superior? Huh, who'd of thunk....
No, wait, you're not even in the market for either one; you just like to whine!
p.13 #15 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
Still with the childish name-calling, I see. Kind of shows what a man you are, and what a master-debater, also, I guess...
"More" is a meaningless set of "attributes."
I hesitate to ask, but I'll do it anyway; do you really think that the small differences (in actual use by the target markets) between the D600 and the 6D will make any real difference to the vast, vast majority of users?
And, again, if you do, why not just buy the Nikon product, rather than whining about the Canon product? Could it be because you're too invested in Canon stuff to consider an Nikon camera, however much you may consider the Nikon product to be superior? Huh, who'd of thunk....
No, wait, you're not even in the market for either one; you just like to whine! ...Show more →
I'll name call someone who slanders anytime...no need to provide any additional response to you, it's a waste of keystrokes. Your words speak for themselves, I believe you finally looked at the D600 specs and had a realization...or maybe not.
One last time for the Hall of Shame award:
StarNut wrote:
You seem to think that these two products the 6D and the D600 are in "competition." They really aren't.
p.13 #16 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
jorkata wrote:
What's there you refute, SpareNut
You claim to understand product positioning - and yet, you fail to acknowledge that it's a mistake to market a premium product with lesser specs that lower-end products.
You also claim that the 6D is targeted for 60D/7D upgraders - when it has an inferior AF system than both.
What other ludicrous claims are you going to make to defend Canon's stupid marketing mistake?
You seem to miss that it is the entry level FF. Crop users upgrading are upgrading for the FF capability, expecting a rival feature set to the top end crop offerings isn't realistic. Canon want users wanting that performance to buy a 5D3. I do agree though, I would much rather see an all cross point AF on the spec sheet. I'd much rather not see all the AF points crammed in the middle though!
p.13 #17 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
StarNut wrote:
People buy the 7D for it's wonderful abilities with sports/wildlife. Many of us own the 7D to complement other bodies (thereby having a tool which is optimized for everything we shoot). One camera that has the best of the 7D, with a high quality FF sensor is expensive; it's the 5D3.
No, it's not a linear path any more, but the path is still pretty clear. The 5D3 pretty much does everything the 7D does (and/or the 6D will do), and more. The 6D pretty much does everything the xxD (and/or the various Rebel versions) does, and more. The 1DX is the one camera to rule them all. ...Show more →
The nonlinear path makes me nervous ;-) In fact, I was considering 6D until the rumormill came with the "11pt AF" specs and the Canon announcement made it real. Then I lost the interest. In fact, I think I might be better served (landscapes, static/slow scenes) with the 5D classic when it drops in price even more, if I get the feeling that I absolutely can't make it without FF... 2005 style AF camera won't fit me as a primary one. And 7D doesn't look too attractive for 1D2N user.
People may not like how Canon has specified the three FF entries (obviously), but the market so far has enthusiastically endorsed the 5D3, and I would be shocked if Canon missed its market with the 6D. And that's Canon's job, to please the many (not the few).
Another question. Canon pleased many low budget people by providing quite a nice Rebels for a nice price. But 6D is wayyyyy above Rebels price-wise. Also, I think that people who own middle-high end croppers will be looking at it, and question is whether they will be happy. I guess the people with better croppers went/stayed with them because 5D2 was too slow for them. 6D doesn't quite improve on these specs...
But yes, in the end it's how the body sells in general. I won't be buying.
p.13 #19 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
RobertLynn wrote:
Canon didn't make the camera I want, so now I'm mad! Oh I have to pay dollars for it too?! Now I'm really mad!
Grrr!
It's all price/performance ratio.
And no, I'm not mad because Canon didn't make the camera I wanted. The camera I really want is EOS D700, aka 5D classic with 1DMk2 AF - now this would be a camera for me worth being mad about!
I just don't like being served 2005 dish in 2012. Again and again. Especially so when there was much better dish being served last century.
p.13 #20 · Canon finally honest and openly admit AF crippling
DIRK JASPER(a Nikon guy) says :
We expect to get some upgraders coming to the D600 from the D300/S, though, also D80 and D90 users, we have received a lot of positive comments from them. They are considering entering the full-frame system with the D600, because they think it's good value for money, it's something they've been waiting for, because the D700 was out of reach when they bought their cameras. The D600 can process information twenty times faster than the D700. It has double the pixel count, the color range and the dynamic range is better…
The AF system is taken from the D7000 - have you made any changes?
Yes it's the same module, but there have been refinements, especially in terms of the sensitivity. With this camera you can focus at a combined aperture of F8, which isn't possible with the D7000.
