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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

ricardovaste
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p.159 #1 · p.159 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

I shall now sit quietly and wait. Case, card, charger and OVF on their way.

I'll go with that for a while, and revisit a thumb grip if necessary. I'm sure I could fashion an inexpensive OVF & Thumb grip together too, if necessary.

Thanks for the help chaps!

Aug 14, 2013 at 11:59 AM

FMTopFan
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p.159 #2 · p.159 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Hi guys, this is a great thread. I'm having a big challenge deciding whether this is a good time to go for a RX1(R).

Basically I've been shooting with the EM5 and GR, really happy with the results but as soon as it gets dark, the image quality degrades. Sure noise reduction can bring back a lot, but they are always borderline. Aside from noise, I'm also getting sick of the small sensors look.

So the above are the two reasons I wanted full frame with high ISO capability. But I have two concerns. Is the IQ/high ISO of RX1 really that much better than APS-C cameras? Fuji X100s is seriously tempting me with 1/3 cost, faster focus, and its ability to set Minimum Shutter Speed in Auto ISO, especially in the face of Sony's seeming corporate philosophy of never updating/enhancing fireware of both RX100 and RX1 series.

The second concern is buying a new camera at this time of the year, so close to Photokina. Aren't we expecting a wave of announcements, maybe some will even be going against Sony's "compact but large sensor" concept? I really would like Nikon, Ricoh or someone else bringing out something similar with better UI (such as minimum shutter speed in AutoISO) and perhaps even bring the prices down.

Will I regret this purchase a month from now based on these concerns?

Aug 14, 2013 at 02:13 PM

douglasf13
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p.159 #3 · p.159 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fredmirandafan wrote:
Hi guys, this is a great thread. I'm having a big challenge deciding whether this is a good time to go for a RX1(R).

Basically I've been shooting with the EM5 and GR, really happy with the results but as soon as it gets dark, the image quality degrades. Sure noise reduction can bring back a lot, but they are always borderline. Aside from noise, I'm also getting sick of the small sensors look.

So the above are the two reasons I wanted full frame with high ISO capability. But I have two concerns. Is the IQ/high ISO of RX1...Show more →

I don't really find my RX1's AF to be any slower than my X100s' AF. It depends on the lighting and subject. The X100s AF may be slightly faster, but the RX1 AF doesn't seem to make mistakes as often, so I'd basically call it a draw. As far as high ISO, Fuji gets tricky in rating their ISOs nearly a stop off of most cameras, and you'll see the high ISO advantage of the RX1, as it is basically at the top of the lowlight heap.

The RX1 doesn't have a minimum shutter setting in autoISO like the X100s...however, the X100s doesn't allow you to adjust exposure compensation with autoISO when using M mode like the RX1 does, so, again, it is a trade off. I actually prefer using autoISO in M mode, so I'd choose the RX1's way of doing it, although both cameras should make both features an option. FWIW, I don't think Fuji will change this in a firmware update, as it has been a pretty popular request since the first X100 came out.

To be honest, I really don't enjoy using my X100s any more than my RX1. Both cameras work well for me. The output of the RX1 is so much better, though, that I'm selling the X100s.

Aug 14, 2013 at 02:37 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.159 #4 · p.159 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fredmirandafan wrote:
The second concern is buying a new camera at this time of the year, so close to Photokina. Aren't we expecting a wave of announcements, maybe some will even be going against Sony's "compact but large sensor" concept? I really would like Nikon, Ricoh or someone else bringing out something similar with better UI (such as minimum shutter speed in AutoISO) and perhaps even bring the prices down.

Photokina is just over a year away in 2014 (it occurs every two years). Sony does have some announcements coming soon though, particularly for a FF NEX style interchangeable lens system. It will be much more expensive than an RX1 when the lens is taken into account and the initial 35mm lens offering will be a slow 2.8 (which may matter to you if you are worried about high ISO performance as the IQ from the RX1 wide open at F2 is great). I don't expect we will see competition from anyone else in this space (FF compact mirrorless) until Photokina late next year.

Auto ISO in Manual mode on the RX1 is great btw. Set whatever shutter speed you like!

That's what I would use in low light.

Aug 14, 2013 at 03:00 PM

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p.159 #5 · p.159 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

douglasf13 wrote:
I don't really find my RX1's AF to be any slower than my X100s' AF. It depends on the lighting and subject. The X100s AF may be slightly faster, but the RX1 AF doesn't seem to make mistakes as often, so I'd basically call it a draw.

It's interesting to hear actual user experience, whereas most reviews are calling X100s AF "fastest" "lightning" "best of compacts" etc.

douglasf13 wrote:
As far as high ISO, Fuji gets tricky in rating their ISOs nearly a stop off of most cameras, and you'll see the high ISO advantage of the RX1, as it is basically at the top of the lowlight heap.

This is one major reason for me to go for RX1, but I've read that this advantage is eliminated by the lack of OIS/IS so on my EM5 or other similar bodies I could have a 3-5 stop advantage (of course the look would not be similar). Have you found many blurry shots due to too low shutter speed?

douglasf13 wrote:
The RX1 doesn't have a minimum shutter setting in autoISO like the X100s...however, the X100s doesn't allow you to adjust exposure compensation with autoISO when using M mode like the RX1 does, so, again, it is a trade off. I actually prefer using autoISO in M mode, so I'd choose the RX1's way of doing it, although both cameras should make both features an option.

I agree, why would manufacturers not make the flexibility to switch between modes a standard?

douglasf13 wrote:
To be honest, I really don't enjoy using my X100s any more than my RX1. Both cameras work well for me. The output of the RX1 is so much better, though, that I'm selling the X100s.

Aside from RX1 IQ, do you also enjoy its smaller size? That's another one strike against X100s for me.

Aug 14, 2013 at 03:04 PM

FMTopFan
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p.159 #6 · p.159 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Photokina is just over a year away in 2014 (it occurs every two years). Sony does have some announcements coming soon though, particularly for a FF NEX style interchangeable lens system. It will be much more expensive than an RX1 when the lens is taken into account and the initial 35mm lens offering will be a slow 2.8 (which may matter to you if you are worried about high ISO performance as the IQ from the RX1 wide open at F2 is great).

oops, I thought Photokina for some reasons happen every year. I also heard about the FF NEX, although interchangeable lens on mirrorless on a slim body sounds sexy, I'm also afraid that pricing will be Leica territory. Any chance that this FF NEX will be priced below $2800?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't expect we will see competition from anyone else in this space (FF compact mirrorless) until Photokina late next year.

Any reasons why? I don't see Olympus or Panasonic doing it achieving this when they seem to have problems updating increasing megapixel count on the MFT sensors, but aren't Nikon in a position to use the sensor from D600 or D800 on an amazing compact full frame camera?

Tariq Gibran wroteAuto ISO in Manual mode on the RX1 is great btw. Set whatever shutter speed you like!

That's what I would use in low light.

Yea, it sounds like I have a new "mode" to learn. Ideally I still wish shutter speed floor could be set, so I only have to worry about Aperture in AutoISO mode. An elegant solution is for Sony to introduce implement minimum shutter speed setting in P, A so I retain the option to set both aperture and shutter in M mode while AutoISO changes!

This would make it one notch better than Fuji's AutoISO and Minimum Shutter Speed feature, but would Sony ever do it? Someone should send the Sony managers in Japan/US a message?

Aug 14, 2013 at 03:28 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.159 #7 · p.159 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fredmirandafan wrote:
oops, I thought Photokina for some reasons happen every year. I also heard about the FF NEX, although interchangeable lens on mirrorless on a slim body sounds sexy, I'm also afraid that pricing will be Leica territory. Any chance that this FF NEX will be priced below $2800?

Any reasons why? I don't see Olympus or Panasonic doing it achieving this when they seem to have problems updating increasing megapixel count on the MFT sensors, but aren't Nikon in a position to use the sensor from D600 or D800 on an amazing compact full frame camera?

The body of the FF NEX is rumored to cost about the same as the RX1 but the Zeiss lenses will almost certainly be over 1K each. Given that the first Zeiss 35mm lens offering is said to be F2.8 in order to keep the size down, I don't think you will see anything comparable to the RX1 with it's 35/2 lens size wise.

Nikon is hunkering down with DSLR after disappointing sells of their small Nikon 1 mirrorless system. Although I think they are reading too much into that, it seems they have generalized that "mirrorless" is not the place to be. Canon also seems leery of mirrorless so for either one to come out with a FF mirrorless offering now would be a huge surprise. I suspect the only other entry into FF mirrorless anytime soon might be Ricoh.

Aug 14, 2013 at 04:17 PM

douglasf13
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p.159 #8 · p.159 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fredmirandafan wrote:
It's interesting to hear actual user experience, whereas most reviews are calling X100s AF "fastest" "lightning" "best of compacts" etc.

This is one major reason for me to go for RX1, but I've read that this advantage is eliminated by the lack of OIS/IS so on my EM5 or other similar bodies I could have a 3-5 stop advantage (of course the look would not be similar). Have you found many blurry shots due to too low shutter speed?

I agree, why would manufacturers not make the flexibility to switch between modes a standard?

Aside from RX1 IQ, do you also enjoy its...Show more →

I don't really use slow shutter speeds that often, because I don't like to risk subject movement, so OIS is of limited usefulness to me at this focal length. That being said, you should be able to hand hold the camera at pretty low shutter speeds, since there is no mirror and it has a leaf shutter. I rarely shoot below 1/80 with this camera, since that is the default low shutter speed with autoISO, and I flip to M mode if I want a faster shutter speed.

There are times in really good light that the X100s AF is very fast, but there just isn't a world of difference in most settings. The RX1's AF seems to "check" itself more, so that does occasionally slow it down. I never did any strict tests, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I haven't used the EM5, but, from what I've read, I'd imagine that both the RX1 and X100s will feel slow to you.

The RX1 doesn't feel a ton smaller than the X100s. It is shorter and narrower, but also deeper. Plus, I use a Voigtlander OVF, which adds to the height of the camera.

Aug 14, 2013 at 04:32 PM

Dneufarth
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p.159 #9 · p.159 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Sorry, if this is a question that I should be able to answer myself. But, is the firmware version 1.00 the most current available for the RX1? I can't find a newer version anywhere, and I will be very surprised if Sony has not yet released an update.

Thanks, Derek

Aug 14, 2013 at 08:17 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.159 #10 · p.159 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Dneufarth wrote:
Sorry, if this is a question that I should be able to answer myself. But, is the firmware version 1.00 the most current available for the RX1? I can't find a newer version anywhere, and I will be very surprised if Sony has not yet released an update.

Thanks, Derek

Yes, that's right and the only version out there. Unlike say Fuji, Sony generally waits to release finished products with final firmware ready to go from the start!

Aug 14, 2013 at 08:33 PM

Dneufarth
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p.159 #11 · p.159 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Thanks Tariq.

Aug 14, 2013 at 08:41 PM

sebboh
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p.159 #12 · p.159 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Yes, that's right and the only version out there. Unlike say Fuji, Sony generally waits to release finished products with final firmware ready to go from the start!

Fuji does add a lot of features though over the course of a products lifetime but they also tend to fix major bugs as well along the way. The RX1 might have a feature or two some might want but it does not have any major bugs that I'm aware of.

maybe no bugs, but i bet a lot of people would be happy if they added focus distance memory settings, full screen focus peaking, and the ability to set a min shutter speed for auto iso.

Aug 14, 2013 at 08:43 PM

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p.159 #13 · p.159 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

sebboh wrote:
maybe no bugs, but i bet a lot of people would be happy if they added focus distance memory settings, full screen focus peaking, and the ability to set a min shutter speed for auto iso.

Wait a min, I get the last two requests re full screen focus peaking and setting min shutter speed for AutoISO, but are you saying that the camera won't remember manual focus distance once I power cycle it? I was hoping I could at least set zone-focusing distance for street photography since it doesn't have snap focus like my GR. But it sounds like in order to "remember" the manual focus distance, I have to keep the power on the whole time?? Does the X100s have this quirk too?

Also, I am wondering if the external EVF is larger or has larger magnification compared to the flagship NEX7? I went to a local Sony store to check it out but they don't have the EVF on demo or in stock so I was told it looks exactly like the one on NEX7, which didn't impress me at all. I saw tearing, blown-up highlights, muddy shadows, plus bad colors, so please tell me the actual EVF is better than this? Maybe the Sony store inside the mall has bad lighting, but it can't be this bad?! Maybe some weird setting on the NEX7?

Aug 14, 2013 at 09:06 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.159 #14 · p.159 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Having owned the NEX-7 previously, I can tell you that the EVF for the RX1 is better. The NEX-7 EVF was the main reason I sold that camera. It gave me a major headache after a while. The RX1 EVF has better eye relief and I do not notice any tearing/ stuttering at all in low light due to low evf fps. Color and dr is alright once you set it up correctly (with effects on). You can then decrease the contrast and improve the color with the jpeg setting even if you just shoot raw. It's very good as far as EVF's go.

I don't use manual focus but I believe you are correct. It will not remember the focus setting when turned off.

Aug 14, 2013 at 09:26 PM

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p.159 #15 · p.159 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't use manual focus but I believe you are correct. It will not remember the focus setting when turned off.

What?! (as in shock)

Sony, what are you doing to me?

First you told me there is no AutoISO in any of my favorite modes like A, S and P. Then there is the weird focus peaking magnification thing that everybody is complaining about (is there anyone who actually likes this?) Now finally you will be depriving me of snap focus plus you don't care to remember the manual focus distance that I keep telling you about?

What's left is your high ISO IQ and sexy body - are these two qualities enough for us to have a long and happy marriage?

Aug 14, 2013 at 09:34 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.159 #16 · p.159 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fredmirandafan wrote:
First you told me there is no AutoISO in any of my favorite modes like A, S and P.

AutoISO is available in those modes. Was it mentioned somewhere it wasn't?

The Ricoh definitely has a great snap focus mode. If I was buying a camera for strict street type, spontaneous shooting, that would likely be my choice.

Aug 14, 2013 at 09:46 PM

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p.159 #17 · p.159 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Tariq Gibran wrote:
AutoISO is available in those modes. Was it mentioned somewhere it wasn't?
Sorry, I was too upset about the not retaining manual focus thing, what I meant to say was "no min shutter speed setting in AutoISO under PSA"

I apologize for the confusion.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
The Ricoh definitely has a great snap focus mode. If I was buying a camera for strict street type, spontaneous shooting, that would likely be my choice.
Totally agree, but as soon as the light fades, I start dealing with noisy, which is really annoying. Not to mention the creamy rendering on the RX1 which is not physically possible with GR.

Aug 14, 2013 at 09:52 PM

philip_pj
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p.159 #18 · p.159 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

fan of fred, I suggest a one night stand with the RX1 rather than even a Las Vegas marriage. Superb image quality may not be enough for you. Plenty of other cameras if your 'must have' spec sheet list is more important.

What will you remember in 5 years time: how great that snap focus was for all those noisy, sub-par APS-C images? Or how such minor gripes did not detract from super quality photos and your impressive ability to do some simple workarounds - like press the (assignable) focus button once to where you wanted focus set to, takes maybe a quarter second?

'I apologize for the confusion.' Don't, as that is the normal state of affairs, lol.

Aug 14, 2013 at 10:17 PM

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p.159 #19 · p.159 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

Having had both the GR and the RX1, and a good number of other camera's, I don't think the lack of MF distance being remembering is really that big of deal breaker in actual usage.

In theory, or on paper so to speak, yeah, it sounds like a downside, but in the time I've owned the camera, I can' say I found it to be remotely an issue for me simply setting a MF distance, stopping down and then keeping the camera powered on.

Realistically, you have to ask yourself how long do you actively go about street shooting at a given time ?

For me, I might see a certain corner with a background or light I like, and I'll wait for subjects to come through the frame. Simply keep the camera powered on when doing this and everything is fine.

Maybe if I wanted to stand there for 8 hours straight and do it, then yeah that could be an issue, but is that realistic ? Do I really want to stand around for even 1 hour for a given shot ? No.

Now even the best MF street camera (at least digital) is something your going to want to turn off or let go into sleep mode over the course of a day.

Advantage some cameras have of course is that when you turn them back on, they remember the MF distance. All well and good right ?

Well lets think about the differences. Camera like the GR you pull from your pocket or what not and power up and/or wake from sleep. Its set to the same distance and in 1 second or 2 your ready to shoot.

Now consider the same with the RX1, you power it back up and your MF distance isn't saved, so what do you do ?

Well if your me, you simply hit the AF button on a subject of the distance I want, say something 6 feet away then flip the front dial or a customized button to switch to MF mode and your ready to go.

Takes maybe a couple seconds longer, thats it, a few seconds.

Now one could argue that a few seconds can mean getting a shot or missing a shot, and that is certainly true, however, if its the type of shot that is that fleeting, then odds are that before any camera woke back up the moment is missed. Sure maybe you caught the last half second because you saved valuable time, but how often do that happen ?

Realistically, if your shooting in that type of environment your not going to want your camera to go to sleep most would agree right ? So in which case, if your keeping your camera powered on, then the RX1 works as well as anything else.

Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 PM

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p.159 #20 · p.159 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

philip_pj wrote:
fan of fred, I suggest a one night stand with the RX1 rather than even a Las Vegas marriage. Superb image quality may not be enough for you.
This reminds me of that recent article on dpreview.com about satisficer vs maximizer, do I want all features I am looking for or can I settle for the best features (in this case, high ISO amazing IQ and compact size) I am happy with

philip_pj wrote:
What will you remember in 5 years time: how great that snap focus was for all those noisy, sub-par APS-C images?
Very true, I wish many of my favorite images made in the past years were done on higher quality sensor. I never think about how fast the AF or snap focus was.

philip_pj wrote:
some simple workarounds - like press the (assignable) focus button once to where you wanted focus set to, takes maybe a quarter second?
I went through the Sony manua on the "Func of C" but I don't see an option for "where I want focus set to". Well at least intuitively I don't see any of the choices matching what you describe. Am I missing something?

millsart wrote:
Now one could argue that a few seconds can mean getting a shot or missing a shot, and that is certainly true, however, if its the type of shot that is that fleeting, then odds are that before any camera woke back up the moment is missed. Sure maybe you caught the last half second because you saved valuable time, but how often do that happen?
For me, very frequently. But the super fast RX100M2 has been reducing that frequency. Of course its IQ is not comparable to FF.

Perhaps HCB would say that I'm not good enough in anticipating the decisive moment yet, but back then, I'm sure they don't care about AF or toggling switches. Instead, relying on zone-focusing with enough DOF to cover their subjects still produced wonderful images. Many years later, in present day, it's ironic that we still don't have an option to set manual focusing distance on one of the most state-of-the-art, sophisticated, expensive cameras money can buy, without taking a hit on battery life.

millsart wrote:
Realistically, if your shooting in that type of environment your not going to want your camera to go to sleep most would agree right ? So in which case, if your keeping your camera powered on, then the RX1 works as well as anything else.
You're absolutely right, it seems packing a couple of extra batteries (super cheap on eBay and Amazon) is the only compromise available in this case.

Aug 14, 2013 at 11:57 PM

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