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Archive 2012 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...

  
 
Bifurcator
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p.4 #1 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


OK, I'll do it then.

This is about what one can expect from "good" home scanning equipment shooting Fujichrome Provia 100F Professional [RDP III] on a Nikon F4s with the extremely sharp Nikkor 105/2.8D (Micro) @ f/5.6 sucking it up at 4,800dpi - about 18 megapixels. Here's the 100% unedited crop:




100% crop - unedited, 1x Oversampling, Not as good (resolution) as any of the 2011 or 2012 P&S's I know of.













I think it doesn't look too bad scaled to web sizes after processing.
I guess this would look OK printed at 8x10 or A4 size,
but that would probably be the outside max.
And hope the viewer don't get too close.








Aug 06, 2012 at 02:30 PM
alwang
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p.4 #2 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Is this with a flatbed, or a dedicated 35mm film scanner? Also 18MP is a little high compared to a standard modern P&S, which probably averages around 12MP? If you downrezzed to 12MP and applied some basic sharpening (which all those P&S cameras will apply), that 100% view probably won't look too bad. Still not competitive with modern APS-C DSLRs, but pretty good.


Aug 06, 2012 at 02:48 PM
Bifurcator
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p.4 #3 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...










Original 4,800dpi (18mp) scan scaled to 12mp with 2-step sharpening + crop. No grain removal.









It's better but I still think most 2011 / 2012 P&S cameras would beat it. Probably not by too much tho!




Edited on Aug 07, 2012 at 09:18 PM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2012 at 03:22 PM
Peter Figen
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p.4 #4 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


I'm going to post one image and a 100 percent crop from the same image. Now, you have to keep in mind that this was shot on a roll of PKM25 that was twenty years expired and had lost some speed, but not any color, and it was shot with a Canon 35mm 1.4 at f/2, which is not the sharpest aperture, but still pretty damned good. The first shot shows the full frame and the detail is a 100 percent crop of the 8000 ppi Howtek drum scan. While there is some film grain, it's not objectionable, but the overall detail is amazing, and when you see the 40 inch wide test print here, you, too, will be a believer. I've shot similar images with a 1DsMKIII and, while they are relatively grainless by comparison, they are not any sharper.

In addition, and I have no way to show you here, I've done quite a bit of testing using 35mm film compared to Canon digital. A few years ago, I shot a controlled outdoor setting outside my studio with a 200mm 1.8 @f4,and scanned that Velvia at 8000 ppi on the Howtek. It was very very sharp, with more detail than you could imagine from a 35mm frame. The problem was, that, even with an 8000 ppi drum scan, which means that you're scanning through an aperture of 3.17 microns, there was even more detail visible on the film when viewing a high magnification section directly off the film. There was detail visible on the film that could not be resolved even by an 8000 ppi drum scan. I was amazed at that and you're going to have to take my word on it.

There's so much more to image quality than resolution alone, but, if you're using the best film, lenses, shooting techniques and scanner, the resolution equivalency is a lot higher than you think.

I've also done the same shot (as close as possible) with a three stitch pan on a 1DsMKIII and a 24mm T/SII, shot vertically and stitched left, right and center, compared to a Mamiya 7 43mm with T-Max100 scanned at 4000. Very similar looks to them detail-wise, which puts the 6x7 in the 40 mp range equivalent. The film still looks better to me overall, but that is subjective.










Aug 06, 2012 at 03:28 PM
Peter Figen
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p.4 #5 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


I'm going to post one image and a 100 percent crop from the same image. Now, you have to keep in mind that this was shot on a roll of PKM25 that was twenty years expired and had lost some speed, but not any color, and it was shot with a Canon 35mm 1.4 at f/2, which is not the sharpest aperture, but still pretty damned good. The first shot shows the full frame and the detail is a 100 percent crop of the 8000 ppi Howtek drum scan. While there is some film grain, it's not objectionable, but the overall detail is amazing, and when you see the 40 inch wide test print here, you, too, will be a believer. I've shot similar images with a 1DsMKIII and, while they are relatively grainless by comparison, they are not any sharper.

In addition, and I have no way to show you here, I've done quite a bit of testing using 35mm film compared to Canon digital. A few years ago, I shot a controlled outdoor setting outside my studio with a 200mm 1.8 @f4,and scanned that Velvia at 8000 ppi on the Howtek. It was very very sharp, with more detail than you could imagine from a 35mm frame. The problem was, that, even with an 8000 ppi drum scan, which means that you're scanning through an aperture of 3.17 microns, there was even more detail visible on the film when viewing a high magnification section directly off the film. There was detail visible on the film that could not be resolved even by an 8000 ppi drum scan. I was amazed at that and you're going to have to take my word on it.

There's so much more to image quality than resolution alone, but, if you're using the best film, lenses, shooting techniques and scanner, the resolution equivalency is a lot higher than you think.

I've also done the same shot (as close as possible) with a three stitch pan on a 1DsMKIII and a 24mm T/SII, shot vertically and stitched left, right and center, compared to a Mamiya 7 43mm with T-Max100 scanned at 4000. Very similar looks to them detail-wise, which puts the 6x7 in the 40 mp range equivalent. The film still looks better to me overall, but that is subjective.








Gee Rabe - Kodachrome 25 Exp. 1991







8000 ppi detail unsharpened, straight off the scanner




Aug 06, 2012 at 03:30 PM
Zaitz
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p.4 #6 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Fantastic image and scan! I've read that elsewhere, I think it was onlandscapes comparison, where there is more detail through a microscope that the scanners just can't pick up. Amazing.

http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/



Aug 06, 2012 at 03:58 PM
Bifurcator
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p.4 #7 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Nice examples of what special professional film can yield when scanned on an MSRP $28,995.00 drum scanner.

Although in all fairness I did see one for sale for about $5,000 after shipping.

I sure wish they still manufactured Kodachrome 25 or even still offered processing! Simply the best film ever IMO!





Aug 06, 2012 at 04:07 PM
Gunzorro
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p.4 #8 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Ah, Peter, now you are making me play Devil's Advocate again!

You have provided an exceptional example here -- exceptional in its quality and look, and exceptional in it's difficulty for the normal person to obtain. And if a normal person has no drum scanner (and the needed skills!), they need to rely on outside labs, I doubt that your result could be duplicated at less than many hundreds of dollars for that one image/print. A super pro scan would be quite costly, but considerably cheaper than a print.

Starting with the film: most people on the forum are shooting ISO 100 color neg as the best available in 35mm. Kodachrome 25 is arguably the finest grained film with the most homogeneous structure -- nothing comparable is available today.

Most people don't own a Howtek, and are lucky to have a Epson flatbed.

I certainly am not accusing you of fraud! I love your work. I'm just pointing out that it is not the ordinary, even for pro labs or advanced photographers.

I applaud your skills and equipment -- you are one for the finest scanning techs I've ever seen. But I think the "common truth" is a little closer to Bif's assertions for general film performance today.



Aug 06, 2012 at 04:10 PM
Peter Figen
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p.4 #9 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Yeah, I was surprised, especially after all the hype at Aztek about how their scanners could record everything on the film. Well, not quite, but, in all fairness, scanning on one of these scanners is still the best way to extract as much detail as possible, because you lose less in the scan than you do trying to make a huge projected print. The scanner lens is still sharper than any enlarger lens.

Chris's scanner would have been a great buy. I can't imagine selling mine. I paid $9K in 2001 for my 8000 and six weeks later had to put a new motherboard in to the tune of another $5K, which made is just about the going price back then. You can get scanner cheap today, but they still cost a fortune to fix. It's something like $1500 just to have it looked at, but at least you can still get parts and get 'em fixed.



Aug 06, 2012 at 04:16 PM
altern3
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p.4 #10 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


You have over exposure and under exposure in the same negative and no drum scanner can remedy that.

A good example is her hair which looks smudged - but its actually under exposed to the point of being pure blacks -- that's what happens with 5 stops of DR.

And finally that is a very unflattering image of a lady, first of all with a 35mm and that close the distortion is nasty and every pore in her skin shows due to sharpening.

Not to forget the halo around edges - once again thanks to sharpening.




Aug 06, 2012 at 04:20 PM
Zaitz
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p.4 #11 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Fantastic opinion^...



Edited on Aug 06, 2012 at 04:43 PM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2012 at 04:33 PM
Peter Figen
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p.4 #12 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


"You have over exposure and under exposure in the same negative and no drum scanner can remedy that."

No negative here. As with most transparency film, you expose for the highlights and let the shadows fall where they may. The skin here is not over exposed, and at the time of the shot, her hair was jet black, so any detail there would be questionable anyway.

"A good example is her hair which looks smudged - but its actually under exposed to the point of being pure blacks -- that's what happens with 5 stops of DR."

The hair isn't smudged, but most likely out of focus due to shooting at f/2, which is something that was done, stylistically, and on purpose.

"And finally that is a very unflattering image of a lady, first of all with a 35mm and that close the distortion is nasty and every pore in her skin shows due to sharpening. "

If all you're out to do is try and tear down an image, then I guess you're good at it. You may not understand the type of image I was making, and that's okay, but let's just say that you're the first out of many many who have seen this image to call it unflattering. That's okay. It's your opinion, but it has nothing at all to do with why it was posted in this thread. In fact, you've help make the point by noticing every pore in her skin. You wouldn't have seen that if it hadn't had been resolved.

Sharpening? No, this image has had zero sharpening. The detail scan that is. The low res jpeg was sharpened for that size viewing on a screen, but the detail had no sharpening either in the scanner or in post processing. Since I'm the one who did it all from soup to nuts, I would know. Not seeing the halos you're referring to either, but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Not to forget the halo around edges - once again thanks to sharpening.



Aug 06, 2012 at 04:34 PM
Bifurcator
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p.4 #13 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


I liked Peter's image! I thought it was very "Mod". Creative! Even worthy of a contest entry!




-- -- -- --
More on the P&S, here is a late 2011 P&S camera doing night scenes:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/6448090195/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/6448086331/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/6447936007/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/6447729579/sizes/o/

And some day and dim light scenes here:
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/canon_powershot_s100_review/sample_images/


Also I noticed I typed in 48,000 dpi when of course I meant 4,800 dpi. Sorry about that!





-- -- -- -- -- -- --

BTW, another good way to yield much better results is to oversample the film about 20 to 30 times. Literally just scan the same film 20 different times and merge them as prescribed for the more well known NR technique. It's why I added "1x Oversampling" to the callout. If I like the image or wish to print it large oversampling can really help a lot. It needs a lot of RAM and/or a SSD scratch disk tho.






Aug 06, 2012 at 04:35 PM
telyt
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p.4 #14 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Bifurcator wrote:
I sure wish they still manufactured Kodachrome 25 or even still offered processing! Simply the best film ever IMO!


I compared a drum scan made from one of the best frames from my last roll of K25 with the files produced by the Leica DMR (same lens, subject and lighting) and as it turned out I was glad it was my last roll of K25. Color quality, grain/noise, detail, DR all in the DMR's favor, and this with the DMR at ISO 400.

At $40 per drum scan I wasn't going to compare multiple K25 slides, but no matter... I've been able to print bigger with equal or better quality with the DMR's files, in 6 years the cost of consumables has been about $300 (battery packs rebuilt) and the camera is now worth about as much as I paid for it. I have very fond memories of using many hundreds of rolls of many flavors of Kodachrome but after that comparison with the DMR six years ago, Kodachrome was history for me.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:16 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #15 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


I really don't understand some of the comments here. Film has more grain than digital, really? Film image is made of grain, digital has no grain, so if you don't like grain shoot digital. If you like grain like we do, shoot film. Digital has more DR than slide film: of course. Slide film is the final product, it has about 5 stops of latitude. If you shoot slide, you need to be careful with exposure, but if you shoot negative film, you have at least 14 stops latitude.

One thing that digital shooters should understand and save their time and saliva. Film is not digital. We shoot film not because of DR, or noise free captures, or resolution, or whatever pixelpeepers do to compare their equipment. We shoot film for the look and the process.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:25 PM
Bifurcator
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p.4 #16 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Bifurcator wrote:
I sure wish they still manufactured Kodachrome 25 or even still offered processing! Simply the best film ever IMO!

telyt wrote:
I compared a drum scan made from one of the best frames from my last roll of K25 with the files produced by the Leica DMR (same lens, subject and lighting) and as it turned out I was glad it was my last roll of K25. Color quality, grain/noise, detail, DR all in the DMR's favor, and this with the DMR at ISO 400.

At $40 per drum scan I wasn't going to compare multiple K25 slides, but no matter... I've been able to print bigger with equal or better quality with the DMR's files, in 6 years the cost of
...Show more

Fujichrome Provia 100F Professional [RDP III] is supposed to be the next best thing. But yes, even such a great film in the hands of mere mortals has A LOT of trouble keeping up with even something like an µ4/3 and I guess something like the K-5 usually takes a clear lead.

Now of course kodachrome in 120 rolls... and... wow... (and I say that never having shot 120 BTW - just to quell any accusations that might pop up )


edwardkaraa wrote:
We shoot film for the look and the process.


Yup! For me tho it's only the process really. It's just fun! But I don't think it "looks" all that good - usually.



Edited on Aug 06, 2012 at 05:41 PM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:35 PM
telyt
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p.4 #17 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


edwardkaraa wrote:
One thing that digital shooters should understand and save their time and saliva. Film is not digital. We shoot film not because of DR, or noise free captures, or resolution, or whatever pixelpeepers do to compare their equipment. We shoot film for the look and the process.


No saliva lost from me. I use what I use because of what I see in the prints.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:37 PM
telyt
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p.4 #18 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


Bifurcator wrote:
Now of course kodachrome in 120 rolls... and... wow... (and I say that never having shot 120 BTW - just to quell any accusations that might pop up )


Once upon a time Kodachrome was made in 4x5 sheets too.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:39 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.4 #19 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


telyt wrote:
No saliva lost from me. I use what I use because of what I see in the prints.


Good for you. I use film for exactly the same reason.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:45 PM
Zaitz
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p.4 #20 · PLEASE Convince me about film ...


telyt wrote:
No saliva lost from me. I use what I use because of what I see in the prints.

So then why don't you shoot a decently large format instead of messing with piddly shit.



Aug 06, 2012 at 05:55 PM
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