It's not about helping the cheap bride. It's about quality information to help any bride. This helps all the vendors too. You can't do that by providing information that may have a negative impact in relations. Planting these cheap thoughts in the minds of brides is BS. Give advice on saving money, but also consider respecting your vendors.
lisy78 wrote:
You might not be but try and do a search for vendor meal and you'll see all the lil princesses (and I do mean mostly dudes, of course) whining about a ham sandwich and chips.
I've worked several jobs. None of those jobs included meals provided for me by my employer. I have tons of friends who work in all sorts of fields, professional, non, creative non... and I can't think of any where the client is expected to feed them. Sure maybe a lawyer occasionally gets invited to lunch by a client but for the most part I presume that the only assumption is that you will be provided with AN OPPORTUNITY to eat, not with A MEAL.
If the clients said "you can't step out for 10 minutes to eat a sandwich" then yeah that would be a problem
Brown bags and coolers were invented for this purpose. If you don't get that hot meal that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, try one.
As I said, but you failed to comprehend, I would rather just stop somewhere and get a bite to eat on my own, then go to the event.
As a "self employed" individual, WE contract our services and requirements. If YOU fail to do that when hiring a client, shame on you. Maybe you should do a better job when negotiating a job. Some business 101 classes might help.
marti.g3 wrote:
As I said, but you failed to comprehend, I would rather just stop somewhere and get a bite to eat on my own, then go to the event.
As a "self employed" individual, WE contract our services and requirements. If YOU fail to do that when hiring a client, shame on you. Maybe you should do a better job when negotiating a job. Some business 101 classes might help.
I don't think I failed to comprehend.
The problem is very simple... you can put whatever the heck you want in your contract and negotiate the shit out of it, but "I and my assistant will be fed, or we will be notified in advance and allowed an hour break to go forage in the great outdoors" is about as useful as "nobody with professional gear other than myself shall take photos of the wedding" ... it's a losing proposition to rely on your epic contract negotiations.
In both cases you are negotiating for something with party A, but compliance will depend very heavily on other parties B and C who are in no way obligated to you.
I believe I did mention the situation where the B&G made it clear that I was to be fed AND FED IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEM, so that I would have time to eat and relax a few minutes and be ready to work when they were ready to start their rounds... The staff at the venue basically did a mute "eff you" to that and went about their business handling feeding me according to THEIR policies.
here's my ovearching theory about contracts.
If you put something in the contract YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO FIGHT FOR IT.
If you are willing to fight, on the day of the wedding, with the staff, or your clients, over not being fed, you're a DOUCHE.
Hence the contractual clause about getting fed is little more than a polite request and AGAIN, I would advise that you pack a meal just in case and don't let a snafu that may have been caused by SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE CLIENTS affect the work the clients receive.
That's all.
Again...
the clients might say "yes we will make sure you are fed" and then the catering staff might not feed you, counter to the bride's instructions. So just like you bring backup gear in case your gear fails, bring backup food in case your food fails to materialize.
We have it in our contract that either the couple feeds us, or that we will require a break to leave and get food. It has never been an issue....with having shot nearly 100 weddings or so now, we have never not been fed.
Ale, not to be argumentative, but my husband actually gets fed meals at his job.
He works for a hotel and the hotel decided at some point they no longer wanted employees leaving the property to get food. Often times during the busy season the traffic from the tourists is insane and employees were getting stuck in traffic. It was too far to the nearest fast food joints to walk so they installed a cafeteria and now require them to eat on site. Sometimes the food leaves a bit to be desired, but they have a salad bar and a hot meal consisting of all the food groups. They also have several choices (beef, chicken, fish, veg, etc...). They serve lunch and dinner for 600 employees every day. It's a consequence of the choice they made.
Basically, when they make the decision that they don't want you to leave... They need to feed you. The vast majority of venues around here aren't within a reasonable distance of a takeout joint (we are kind of rural with lots of high end dining but few quick options).
I had a major problem getting fed a few weeks ago and I'm honest about the fact that I get emotional when I'm super hungry. It definitely affected me. It was the caterers fault and a result of the planners negligence. I'm also allergic to peanuts (try finding a cliff bar. Ha.) so I have very limited options. An really this is the South. If someone declines to feed you, it's totally personal and I honestly don't want to work for people who don't take any interest in making sure I have access to some warm food because it says a lot to me about them. I would literally be heartbroken to find out someone working for me went hungry. It's just how I was raised. And I want to work for people with similar values.
joelconner wrote:
We have it in our contract that either the couple feeds us, or that we will require a break to leave and get food. It has never been an issue....with having shot nearly 100 weddings or so now, we have never not been fed.
I have the same thing in mine and I've had numerous problems getting fed... Usually the catering staff trying to show me they run the show and don't care that the couple paid for my meal. It's some sort of nasty pecking order crap that pisses me off.
An Ale is right that you have to be ready to enforce it and that's where I run into the problem. I've yet to actually tap a couple on the shoulder and let them know they'll be losing an hour of coverage because I need to go get food. I'm starting to wonder if I can't approach this ahead of time with the caterer.
I've been responsible for feeding myself for several years now - showing up for thousands of dollars to work doesn't change that. 1 meal out of one day out of my entire life is really not the hill I want to die on nor the thing I'd like to be judged on. Making a big deal about it seems ridiculous to me, but keep it up because it makes our jobs a lot easier.
ckhagen wrote:
I have the same thing in mine and I've had numerous problems getting fed... Usually the catering staff trying to show me they run the show and don't care that the couple paid for my meal. It's some sort of nasty pecking order crap that pisses me off.
An Ale is right that you have to be ready to enforce it and that's where I run into the problem. I've yet to actually tap a couple on the shoulder and let them know they'll be losing an hour of coverage because I need to go get food. I'm starting to wonder if I can't approach this ahead of time with the caterer. ...Show more →
Might be the area of the country...not sure. I don't have any thoughts that it is the contract that has kept us fed, because it's more like an "Of course we are going to feed you" thing when it comes up. We do bring it up with them both at booking and at the final meeting...which might help. But, it is pretty standard around here that vendors eat (especially the photographer). It definitely would not be something I would make a big deal about if it did not happen. I would, though, let the couple know that they need to get a refund from the caterer for our meals if we were not fed...I do not want them overcharged for no reason.
lisy78 wrote:
You might not be but try and do a search for vendor meal and you'll see all the lil princesses (and I do mean mostly dudes, of course) whining about a ham sandwich and chips.
I've worked several jobs. None of those jobs included meals provided for me by my employer. I have tons of friends who work in all sorts of fields, professional, non, creative non... and I can't think of any where the client is expected to feed them. Sure maybe a lawyer occasionally gets invited to lunch by a client but for the most part I presume that the only assumption is that you will be provided with AN OPPORTUNITY to eat, not with A MEAL.
If the clients said "you can't step out for 10 minutes to eat a sandwich" then yeah that would be a problem
Brown bags and coolers were invented for this purpose. If you don't get that hot meal that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, try one.
God forbid that photographers vent in a forum frequented by others in the industry. Good to know that expressing frustration at a situation make you a princess.
lisy78 wrote:
here's my ovearching theory about contracts.
If you put something in the contract YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO FIGHT FOR IT.
If you are willing to fight, on the day of the wedding, with the staff, or your clients, over not being fed, you're a DOUCHE.
So feel free to put clauses in your contract, but if you try to enforce the clauses, you are a douche. Are you a douche for enforcing the payment schedule in your contract?
alohadave wrote:
So feel free to put clauses in your contract, but if you try to enforce the clauses, you are a douche. Are you a douche for enforcing the payment schedule in your contract?
I believe Ale's point is that you should not put in in the contract in the first place.
I is somewhat "douchey" to enforce the food clause, in my opinion. Here's why - the client may be obligated to pay for it, but they can't actually execute on the contract - they can only pay for it. The caterer has a paying client - you aren't it. Yes, you were paid for but you aren't the primary client and in order to please the primary client they have to please a few hundred people. Caterers get raked over the coals. If someone's steak is too rare a few people who had nothing to do with making it are going to take the heat and have to deal with it. There is a reason that they don't have the photographer at the forefront of there mind - and they shouldn't.
In any situation when you are angry with how you are being treated it is almost always a good idea to think about what might have been going on for them that took you out of the forefront of their mind. Sympathy and empathy are better than anger and entitlement (and this a total @$$#0!3 saying that).
In the midst of a paying client, a few hundred vested stakeholders and a limited timeline I think making a big issue about my sandwich or lack thereof is pretty childish.
RJKphoto wrote:
Now what REALLY Pisses me off is seeing the DJ's eating the same food as the guests, while they try to offer me cold chicken fingers or a club sandwich
Or THE BAND showing up right at dinner time and gettng the same as what the guests eat!
alohadave wrote:
So feel free to put clauses in your contract, but if you try to enforce the clauses, you are a douche. Are you a douche for enforcing the payment schedule in your contract?
If you make the boneheaded decision to require final payment on the day of the wedding then yeah, you are.
I can't speak for anyone else but on the day of the wedding I am there to photograph and to some degree to relieve stress for the couple, stress of family members who want porrtaits, stress of family members who want to be in formals that they weren't scheduled for... etc... etc...
The LAST thign I want to be is a STRESS-OR. So no, I don't really have any clauses in my contract that involve performance by anyone other than me, during the wedding that I would enforce, no. Up to the wedding day sure I have things I'm supposed to do, and things they're supposed to do. After the wedding day... again yes... there are responsibilities of mine and responsibilities of theirs. ON THEIR WEDDING DAY they are the king and queen and I'd feel like the douchebag used by a douchebag if I went up to them and bitched about not getting fed, or stopped shooting the formals beacause a cousin with a DSLR is shooting... or argued with the clergy about where I can or can't shoot from... or ... or... or
As to your other post about venting=princesses... ok... if someone was promised a meal and didn't get fed and then comes here and vents, fine... but when I start hearing about "i'm heading to McDonalds and oh yeah me no longer crative, yo" that's bullshit. I realize that a lot of people here think they're artists () and need their ego stroked their needs met, and require constant validation from my peers.
If I get paid, I don't get mistreated and no videographer kicks me in the nuts I'm all good.
That's not to say that I don't get showered with appreciation and compliments and requests to shoot family sessions and all the other ego-stroking shit... 'cause I do. But that's gravy.
Let's just say at the last one where I didn't get fed, the sous chef tossed me a fried chunk of phyllo dough and said (pitifully, and out of the head chefs hearing range) "here... I don't mind giving you this since you didn't just steal food off the buffet". So yeah, that's how they view photographers who eat even though they were included in the head count. It really had nothing to do with anything else that happened. Oh and they threw away two 50 gallon trash cans of food from that buffet after too. So my issue isn't with the clients so much as its been with the catering staff. If they're getting paid to serve food, they need to do it.
D. Diggler wrote:
Or THE BAND showing up right at dinner time and gettng the same as what the guests eat!
Ok, I figured it out.
None of you clowns can cook .
So part of the excitement of the wedding is the chicken picatta (mis-spelled to match the incorrect spelling commonly used by wedding caterers) or the london broil.
With some exceptions the shit they serve me at a wedding (yes I'm talking about what the guests get) is pretty standard fare that pales in comparison to what my wife or I cook up on any given Tuesday... so maybe that's why I don't seem to be so hung up on who's eating what and when. Ha ha ha
Ale... I don't think "creativity" is directly what suffers. But, I can say with certainty that when I get hungry, there's food sitting all around me that I can see and smell, and I'm not allowed to touch it... Cue mega headache and fogginess. I mean kudos to anyone who is superhuman and never needs to eat or can live on cliff bars, but not everyone's body is that way.
ckhagen wrote:
Ale... I don't think "creativity" is directly what suffers. But, I can say with certainty that when I get hungry, there's food sitting all around me that I can see and smell, and I'm not allowed to touch it... Cue mega headache and fogginess. I mean kudos to anyone who is superhuman and never needs to eat or can live on cliff bars, but not everyone's body is that way.
I didn't say anything about cliff bars.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Ciabatta bread.. a thread of extra-virgin olive oil rubbed with basil... a sprinkle of salt and pepper two thickish slices of ricotta salata and a couple of ounces of Prosciutto di Parma (yeah baby... $27/lb!!!) a container with a simple olive oil, salt, pepper, oregano tomato salad and another with some grapes.
The granola bars are the d7000 ... you know... teh backup to the backup.
And yeah I may have had three meals at weddings that beat that in terms of epic deliciousness.
Ciao!
Alessandro
P.S. After the two weddings with Scott in NJ I will also carry a cooler in the car with drinks and extra granola bars.. bet the sandwich will be better if I keep it there too.
) and need their ego stroked their needs met, and require constant validation from my peers.