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Archive 2012 · Is Canon repositioning itself?

  
 
KaaX
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p.3 #1 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Jon_Doh wrote:
...Now, pick up a 5D Mark III and hold it in your hands...


There's a bit of a problem with this particular part :-D




Mar 02, 2012 at 01:48 PM
artd
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p.3 #2 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Jay Adeff wrote:
Canon is not stupid. They will sell every 5D-MkIII they can make. There are a LOT of people out there with money to burn.

When the demand drops, the price will drop. It's not Canon's fault the prices are so high, it's the fault of consumers who are willing to pay.

Same argument for high gas prices. The only way prices will drop is if we stop buying it.

True words....supply and demand, oldest rule in the book.



Mar 02, 2012 at 01:49 PM
Access
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p.3 #3 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Hrow wrote:
For example, I have no doubt that the 5DMkIII will be a fine camera but $3500? Give me a break. That's $1100 over the current, assumingly profitable, price to fix an AF system that doesn't belong in

What percentage of the total DSLR market even considers buying something like a 5Dmkiii. 5%? Less?

Most people I know who are into DSLRs shoot rebels and there is the occasional 50D, 60D, etc. And most stick to lenses in the under-500-dollar range. Cheap zooms or primes, that's it. That's what defines the DSLR market. Not the latest iteration of the 5D, 1D, or lenses that go for more than $500.

That said I don't think Canon is becoming 'premium' product. Rebel pricing may have increased slightly from generation to generation (as of late) but it's just the general trend, not out of line with the other manufacturers. Now without a 'mirrorless' system they might start to lose out on the sub-$400. 'prosumer' segment, since high-end compacts are basically dead and getting replaced by inexpensive olympus mirrorless or such.



Mar 02, 2012 at 04:38 PM
mco_970
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p.3 #4 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


artd wrote:
True words....supply and demand, oldest rule in the book.


And right now, there is only demand for the 5D3 and not a bit of supply. No wonder the price is buggered.



Mar 02, 2012 at 05:01 PM
joychris
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p.3 #5 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Access wrote:
What percentage of the total DSLR market even considers buying something like a 5Dmkiii. 5%? Less?

Most people I know who are into DSLRs shoot rebels and there is the occasional 50D, 60D, etc. And most stick to lenses in the under-500-dollar range. Cheap zooms or primes, that's it. That's what defines the DSLR market. Not the latest iteration of the 5D, 1D, or lenses that go for more than $500.

That said I don't think Canon is becoming 'premium' product. Rebel pricing may have increased slightly from generation to generation (as of late) but it's just the general trend, not out
...Show more

+1

I really wish Sony, Pentax or even Samsung would stick it to Canikon and do a sub $2,000 entry level FF camera. Canon could easily do it - recycle a 60d style body and dumb down some of the 5d3 specs with either the 5d3 or the 1dx sensor. It would be wise IMHO for Canon to expand the DSLR offerings (and release a mirrorless, but that's another argument) before that market starts to cool off. CSC's have carved out a sizable part of the pie in a very short time, the market is shifting.

There's a saturation point that's rapidly approaching, the millions of DSLR's and CSC's sold over the last few years easily satisfy most casual shooters needs. And casual shooters will not be buying new bodies every couple years - if ever. The next generation does most of their shooting on a cell phone, imagine how good mobile phone cameras will be in 4-5 years when you compare iphone 4s to a 3gs. In two years Apple made huge leaps in IQ and that will continue. The iphone sold 55 million units last year and almost 200 million iphones overall - making it the best selling camera on the planet - and its sales pace is still growing.

Cell phones have already destroyed P&S cameras. One of Kodak's many failings was nothing beyond dozens of P&S cameras, market shifted pretty quickly it was caught with its pants down. RIP. Same for the Flip, at least Cisco saw it coming and killed it before getting dragged down. Most cell phones have "HD" video, camcorder's are history too. The bottom is dropping out of the low end camera/video market very, very rapidly as everything has shifted to one do-it-all device ... the mobile phone.

Canon and Nikon are heading to Leica territory - dinosaurs still producing large, expensive cameras (compared to a phone) that fewer and fewer people will be buying in the not too distant future. My brother bought his wife a 60d for her birthday and she got a iphone 4s a few months later. Since getting the 4s, she never uses the 60d or her video camera to shoot my nieces. They'll likely never see the light of day again. The DSLR will be a niche product very soon for serious camera enthusiasts and professionals, everyone else will simply whip out their phone. Sadly Canikon doesn't seem to see this, otherwise they'd be producing cell phone cameras for Apple or Motorola or Nokia.



Mar 02, 2012 at 06:13 PM
Monito
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p.3 #6 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


David Vaughn wrote:
3 years ago I bought the 800mm for $10K; now, its about $14K. Both the 500mm and 600mm have increased $4K. So, at least in the longs lens market, prices have increased 40% in 3 years.


Well, well.

The US dollar has declined compared to the Japanese Yen from about 110 to 80. That works out to, ... wait for it ... 37 percent.

Fancy that!



Mar 02, 2012 at 06:54 PM
Access
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p.3 #7 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


joychris wrote:
I really wish Sony, Pentax or even Samsung would stick it to Canikon and do a sub $2,000 entry level FF camera. Canon could easily do it - recycle a 60d style body and dumb down some of the 5d3 specs with either the 5d3 or the 1dx sensor. It would be wise IMHO for Canon to expand the DSLR offerings (and release a mirrorless, but that's another argument) before that market starts to cool off. CSC's have carved out a sizable part of the pie in a very short time, the market is shifting.

Actually I think Canon is keeping the 5dmk2 in the product line and if they do, they will have to keep the price < $2000. in order to fight the secondary (used) market. If that is for real, we'll likely see a new 5dmk2 going for $1899, then $1699, and maybe even lower before it is finally retired as a product.

I don't know how US-centric their strategy is or how in touch Canon is with what is going on in the US. But they can beat mirrorless if they have a low-price Rebel, there was a time when you could get a 10MP rebel and kit lens for $499. new. Get the price back down there or even lower...



Mar 02, 2012 at 07:05 PM
M Lucca
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p.3 #8 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Ken Rockwell says "If you're poor, you should be shooting 35mm film."


Mar 02, 2012 at 08:25 PM
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p.3 #9 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Monito wrote:
The US dollar has declined compared to the Japanese Yen from about 110 to 80. That works out to, ... wait for it ... 37 percent.


This is quite a simplistic way of thinking.

BMW, Audi, and Mercedes did not jack up their prices by 30+ percent when the euro was super-strong a couple of years ago.
The base configuration of the just announced BMW's 3-series, for example, is priced at 15% more than the 2004 base model.
That's 15% in eight years.

Compare this to 30% in three years - for the same class of product.

And even if we take the simplistic view that the price is entirely dependent on the exchange rate, what about all the parts in this camera that were made in China?
That’s what, 90% of the camera? Did the strong yen make these parts cheaper or more expensive

Canon can charge whatever they want, of course.
We, buyers, also have lots of choices these days, so it's all good.



Mar 02, 2012 at 08:35 PM
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p.3 #10 · Is Canon repositioning itself?



joychris wrote:
I really wish Sony, Pentax or even Samsung would stick it to Canikon and do a sub $2,000 entry level FF camera. Canon could easily do it - recycle a 60d style body and dumb down some of the 5d3 specs with either the 5d3 or the 1dx sensor. It would be wise IMHO for Canon to expand the DSLR offerings (and release a mirrorless, but that's another argument) before that market starts to cool off. CSC's have carved out a sizable part of the pie in a very short time, the market is shifting.

There's a saturation point that's rapidly
...Show more

Actually, they do see this coming and are bracing for it with the new pricing strategy we're all complaining about. With lower volume, per unit production costs, R&D, etc., will be higher, therefore retail prices will be higher. For higher volume items such as a 5DII the increase will be minimal, but for much lower volume items such as the 1DX, the increase is more dramatic. And for really low volume items, such as the 600 IS II, yeah, it's nearly double the price it was 4 years ago. The reality is what you described also applies to the pro markets. Newspaper journalists are shooting video with iPhones. Reporters are filing images from their phones... The paper where I work bought the staff photographers D7000 bodies instead of more 'professional' D300s, let alone wait for the ludicrously priced (in their accounting department's eyes) D4 to ship... There is zero chance the department will ever again order top-of-the-line pro cameras when $1000 DSLRs offer good enough performance and more than good enough image quality. It will be interesting to see where this trend goes over the next 5 years as more and more tech is packed into smaller packages.

So, it Canon repositioning itself? I think they're telling photographers that if you value high-end features, you're a niche buyer and will have to pay accordingly as demand for such features declines. Perhaps it is like Leica after all, but at least Leica produces some really top of the line glass (based on personal experience, of course), which some still care about.



Mar 03, 2012 at 01:18 AM
skibum5
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p.3 #11 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Monito wrote:
Well, well.

The US dollar has declined compared to the Japanese Yen from about 110 to 80. That works out to, ... wait for it ... 37 percent.

Fancy that!


fancy that the D800 costs I think the same or less than the D700 which came out even before the 5D2.



Mar 03, 2012 at 01:25 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #12 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


jorkata wrote:
This is quite a simplistic way of thinking.

BMW, Audi, and Mercedes did not jack up their prices by 30+ percent when the euro was super-strong a couple of years ago.
The base configuration of the just announced BMW's 3-series, for example, is priced at 15% more than the 2004 base model.
That's 15% in eight years.

Compare this to 30% in three years - for the same class of product.

And even if we take the simplistic view that the price is entirely dependent on the exchange rate, what about all the parts in this camera that were made
...Show more

The JPY has close to doubled in value over the USD in the past decade. Have Canon's prices doubled as well? No, they've gone to lengths to reduce costs to hold what they charge in check. During the mid 2000s Canon's prices were actually quite low for some high-end gear (when the Yen was weaker), but there is only so long they can do this, only so much fat to trim... Which the German car manufacturers have also done by producing some vehicles, engines, or parts in eastern Europe rather than Germany... or even in the USA. But unlike Canikon, they're competing against fairly strong domestic and Asian car manufacturers and in order to compete, need to keep retail prices under some sort of control. Canikon in contrast don't have a domestic US competitor. Most of the other camera brands are Japanese. It is not entirely dependent on the exchange rate, but it is a significant factor. Leica recently raised prices for the American market, but not in Europe... I wonder why? A significant factor brewing is the downward trend in future demand for high-end photographic equipment, which any Canon product over $1000 would qualify as, IMO. Lower demand will mean higher prices for niche products.



Mar 03, 2012 at 01:38 AM
campyone
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p.3 #13 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Canon seems to me to be standing in place while other camera makers are racing ahead.


Mar 03, 2012 at 11:01 AM
joychris
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p.3 #14 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


rscheffler wrote:
Actually, they do see this coming and are bracing for it with the new pricing strategy we're all complaining about. With lower volume, per unit production costs, R&D, etc., will be higher, therefore retail prices will be higher. For higher volume items such as a 5DII the increase will be minimal, but for much lower volume items such as the 1DX, the increase is more dramatic. And for really low volume items, such as the 600 IS II, yeah, it's nearly double the price it was 4 years ago. The reality is what you described also applies to the pro
...Show more

What you're talking about with your paper is also happening in TV, broadcasters are moving away from $50,000 shoulder mount cameras with $30,000 lenses attached and using $5,000 prosumer HD cameras like the Sony EX3, high end HD camcorders and even the $300 GoPro. I worked for an NBC affiliate and we were moving to smaller cameras as the big shoulder mount cam's started to crap out. We could sell it used with a lens and buy 3 or 4 EX3's. We beat those cameras to hell and after a few years they still worked perfectly. Why spend $50-75,000 when you can get 98% of the functionality and image quality for a fraction of the cost. Yes the prosumer cam probably won't last 15 years, but with cell phone video regularly integrated into many news stories now, anything that shoots true 1080p is more than sufficient for broadcast TV.

And its not just local affiliates, the Today show and 60 minutes still shoot sit-down interviews with bigger shoulder mount cameras, but many of the cut-away shots and anything action oriented is always a smaller camera. BBC's Top Gear is the same way, there's a mix of cameras, but all the car interior shots, smoking tires on the track and such are smaller cameras. Those three shows certainly have the budget for pretty much anything.

That being said - again I think Canon is missing the boat here - the C300 at $15,000 is the only big chip camcorder it produces with an EOS mount. Where's the Canon competitor to the Sony VG-20, FS-100 of the Panasonic AF-100? The only thing keeping the VG-20 from being more popular with the video guys is lack of proper audio connections, the FS-100's form factor is not very run-and-gun friendly (though it shoots stunning video) and the AF-100 is just way too bulky. Make a EOS camcorder with an APS-c chip, XLR inputs that's sub $2,000 and it will sell in droves.

I use a 5d2 with Zeiss lenses because the IQ is unmatched IMHO by anything within 2x what I have into my setup and I live with the hassle of external audio, crappy variable ND filters, awkward form factor for video and so on. I'd happily buy an EOS camcorder just for the fact that I would own some of the finest small video camera optics around. Sadly, I think the next Nex or Panasonic will get it right and that's what I'll buy over a 5d3.



Mar 04, 2012 at 09:31 AM
311erin
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p.3 #15 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Wow, three pages to sum up Canon wants to increase profitability. Pretty simple guys and girls.


Mar 04, 2012 at 09:58 AM
cameron12x
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p.3 #16 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


All of this begs a potentially even larger question:

Are photographers repositioning themselves?



Mar 04, 2012 at 11:01 AM
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p.3 #17 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


cameron12x wrote:
All of this begs a potentially even larger question:

Are photographers repositioning themselves?


They'd better be or they will find themselves left shoulder deep in the mud.



Mar 04, 2012 at 11:06 AM
Ralph Conway
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p.3 #18 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


Hrow wrote:
The steep pricing on various new Canon products has left me wondering if Canon is trying to reposition its DSLRs as a more "elite" product line. Perhaps they feel that the DSLR is going to wane from the pressure of smaller cameras and feel they can increase or maintain profits by increasing the per unit value to offset lower volume. I really have no idea, but their pricing certainly can't be considered aggressive and in fact, it is just the opposite.

For example, I have no doubt that the 5DMkIII will be a fine camera but $3500? Give me a
...Show more

In some cases it looks like you might be right. In others I see it completely different.

in 24/28 2.8 I think like you. But those lenses are targeted to a complete new target group. One that Canon generated as stand alone the last 6 years. The DSLR pro, semipro and high end consumer video market. No photographer on this world needs a 24/28 2.8 IS lens (even it is always nice to have). Any video user NEEDS it. And compared to pro video lenses those below 1000 $ lenses including 2.8 AF AND IS are just ... "snappers"!

The 500 and 600 are special niche products for absolute spechialized pros or photo freaks. They are worth any penny for them. And they sell.

With other products I think you are just ... wrong.

1D X is offered (here in germany) at the same actual price of 1Ds MK III. That is cheap for the number one camera in the productrange if you compare. 1Ds III was about 5-6k $ more expensive when introduced here in germany. And it does nothing offer, what 1D X does, except resolution, that was overcome already 3 years ago by semipro 5D II at about € 2.500.
The new 5D III will be offered here for about 2300 start price. That is € 800 more. But for what? For a follow up that beats its predecessor in all cases and makes it to the number two (for some who look for higher MP number one) of the whole product range. At 3000 € (4000$) less! With top AF (compare to before), two stops and 2 frames above 5D II. Competitor products 3 years ago? Only two, both about around 10k $. Competitors today? 1D X, 4D, D800 (both if you do not need ISO but speed or resolution).

Based on features it is the cheapest pro camera Canon offered ever.

YES! D800 is 300$ less (again: here in germany). That is 10%. If you NEED highest resolution ever, there is no choice. But if not, if IQ, speed, low light capabilities are important (at second highest resolution) 5D III will be most peoples choice, even if it costs 4000$, not 10% more.

The grip: Canons asking more than 10% of the body price for a camera grip ... this is punishing customers! Asking $ 100 for the tripod collar of a great 1.200$ lens (imo) is just a criminal act.

Other "high" prices:

24-70 2.8 L II:
As far I can see (and that means I can not afford it and I do not had it in my hands) after specs this will be the best lens in that range existing on the world. Like argued here its start price is the same like its predecessors. And even if not. There seems to be nothing conparable on the market.
Any competitor? I do not see one.

70-200 2.8/4.0 L IS USM:
One is 2000, the other is 1000 (both Euro). Those ARE the both best 70-200 mm lenses on the world!
They are both better then many primes. There are no competitors in quality. Those which exist are worse, not even same. Canon shooters can choice between 2.8 and 4.0., depending on wishes, needs, vallet. Any competitor? I do not see one.

If you need the best purchasable equipment from 24-200mm Canon serves you at € 7500 (5D III) up to 10500. Thats it. Who else does. And if, who does it for less?

Yes, I guess Canon works hard in repositioning themselfes. Not only beeing No. 1 in sales, but beeing it in quality, too.

R.



Mar 04, 2012 at 11:42 AM
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p.3 #19 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


A lot of this is guessing the 'hows' and 'whys' of decisions made by one of the most successful companies in the history of the world. We don't have access to the mountains of data that folks a lot smarter than most of us get to review before making pricing decisions.

Seems like most of us reading this thread have 5/2's and we were hoping to be able to upgrade for a decent price asap. So we'll have to wait a bit before it's affordable. So what? Does this new version seem ALL that exciting on paper? Most of us won't even take advantage of the new features so I don't really feel like I'm missing-out on anything particular. Until we start seeing comparisons proving it actually takes better pictures, I'm sitting back kinda glad that the 'gotta have it' factor doesn't exist at $3500.



Mar 04, 2012 at 11:49 AM
cameron12x
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p.3 #20 · Is Canon repositioning itself?


arijill wrote:
A lot of this is guessing the 'hows' and 'whys' of decisions made by one of the most successful companies in the history of the world. We don't have access to the mountains of data that folks a lot smarter than most of us get to review before making pricing decisions.

Seems like most of us reading this thread have 5/2's and we were hoping to be able to upgrade for a decent price asap. So we'll have to wait a bit before it's affordable. So what? Does this new version seem ALL that exciting on paper? Most of us
...Show more

Well said...

The 5D2 is a camera that many photographers could be happy with for a decade.



Mar 04, 2012 at 12:09 PM
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