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Archive 2012 · How long will RAW files be readable?

  
 
15Bit
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p.2 #1 · How long will RAW files be readable?


harrygilbert wrote:
I've already run into newer PCs dropping support for parallel, series, and SCSI ports (my older tape drives), and hard drive interfaces older than SATA.


In fairness, it is not difficult to buy plugin interface cards to provide all these interfaces. Indeed, your SCSI ports almost certainly came from an add-on card änyway, as almost no motherboards had them built in.


On the other hand, I still have hundreds of pages of color negatives and slides that I can scan in and process digitally, not to mention thousands of black & white prints -- some dating to the 1900s.


You've not had any problems with the colour negs changing colour over the years?



Feb 20, 2012 at 12:50 AM
Jefferson
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p.2 #2 · How long will RAW files be readable?


If it’s digital…ones and zeros arranged in a specific pattern… can be reproduced exactly as captured…given the correct format is known,…over and over again…if I understand the question…

Jefferson



Feb 20, 2012 at 01:03 AM
ParroTone
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p.2 #3 · How long will RAW files be readable?


I would disagree about relying on JPEGs as a safe alternative. JPEG is a compressed format and it only takes one corrupted bit to wreak havoc on the file. I've had JPEGs on both CDRW's and hard drives get corrupted. That said I've also had RAW files get corrupted but it only happened on one occasion. As an alternative to JPEGs I'm considering uncompressed TIFF files. I suspect uncompressed TIFF would be a "safer" format.

Any alternative opinions out there?


mhayes5254 wrote:
What EBH said should be true. Perhaps a safer alternative is JPEG. It has the advantage that it contains your proceed version of the image in final form but of course has limited reprocessing options. In my case I am using LR. I need LR to read the file (or some other RAW processor) but I also need the info in the LR library to output the image in final form. I should export JPEGS when I am done processing a set, but generally do not. It is my plan to save both the RAW and JPEG out of LR.





Feb 20, 2012 at 01:30 AM
MintMar
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p.2 #4 · How long will RAW files be readable?


David Baldwin wrote:
I have transparencies and negatives from nearly 30 years ago that I can stll enjoy. Will my RAW files be supported and therefore be readable in 30 years time? When all the current DSLR bodies have been long consigned to the great camera shop in the sky will my CR2s be readable in Photoshop 2042?


The answer is simple - Linux:
1) there will be always some freeware raw processor
2) you can build a reliable RAID array on it
3) with the virtual machine, you can run ye olde Wyndowse with ye olde Photoshoppe from 2010's on your computer in 2042. ;-)



Feb 20, 2012 at 04:32 AM
MintMar
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p.2 #5 · How long will RAW files be readable?


ParroTone wrote:
I would disagree about relying on JPEGs as a safe alternative. JPEG is a compressed format and it only takes one corrupted bit to wreak havoc on the file. I've had JPEGs on both CDRW's and hard drives get corrupted. That said I've also had RAW files get corrupted but it only happened on one occasion. As an alternative to JPEGs I'm considering uncompressed TIFF files. I suspect uncompressed TIFF would be a "safer" format.

Any alternative opinions out there?


Umm, just use more reliable media and/or filesystems?

Also, one interesting method could be the usage of some archiver like RAR, some of them can try to rebuild the archive, if it's not too damaged, and some of them can be even directed (RAR) to include some redundant data to rebuild the archive with higher chances if it becomes damaged.

[snip]



Feb 20, 2012 at 04:37 AM
Fr3d
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p.2 #6 · How long will RAW files be readable?


The safe way is go use a format that nearly everyone is using (like Canon or Nikon). You can be 100% sure that as soon
as this format becomes unsupported someone else will come up with the idea to sell a piece of software that enables
you to read and convert this format to something current because the market is big enough.

As for backup strategy:

1. Use raid (Level 1) disks locally (content is mirrored to 2 identical disks in case one fails)
2. Have a copy of all your files on a (raid1) disk OFF SITE (doesn't cost money to retrieve)
3. Have a copy of all your files in a cloud storage service (costs money to retrieve)





Feb 20, 2012 at 06:34 AM
Ferrophot
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p.2 #7 · How long will RAW files be readable?


We probably need to start with deciding what we want to save, for whom and for how long. My mum is 93. Of the hundred or so family photos starting around 1910 she has kept maybe 20 that are true treasures, the rest either thrown out or dispersed to family members. I don't think my children, grandchildren will want more than 20 "keepers" from me either. I print these and send them around now.
For my own passion I have a large collection for steam train slides and B&W from the good ole days. If historical societies want these when I get to the roundhouse in the sky they can have them, otherwise they will end up in the rubbishtip.
For my wildlife photographs I think the few big prints of African animals I have made will survive as family heirlooms, "greatgrandpa liked animals".
So I think the sum total of my life as a photographer, which I do for my own enjoyment rather than to give others enjoyment, will be represented by maybe, at most, 100 prints. I'm happy with that.



Feb 20, 2012 at 06:44 AM
David Baldwin
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p.2 #8 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Thank you very much for all your replies. Lots of food for thought there!


Feb 20, 2012 at 07:10 AM
MintMar
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p.2 #9 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Ferrophot wrote:
We probably need to start with deciding what we want to save, for whom and for how long. My mum is 93. Of the hundred or so family photos starting around 1910 she has kept maybe 20 that are true treasures, the rest either thrown out or dispersed to family members. I don't think my children, grandchildren will want more than 20 "keepers" from me either. I print these and send them around now.


I think they might not be as unwilling to get your photos, especially if you provide them in a digital form. The storage capacities will be ever-increasing, and your whole (now huge) portfolio that becomes their inheritance might be just a drop in their petabyte storage...

I'm not sure about others, but I take a lot of photos around me just to see in the future how it was in past... And I do view them!

[snip]



Feb 20, 2012 at 07:35 AM
Monito
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p.2 #10 · How long will RAW files be readable?


harrygilbert wrote:
Except for Canon, whose latest version of DPP will not allow adjustment of RAW files (as RAW, only minimum adjustment as TIF) taken by my Pro1. And has formally dropped support for my 5D (still works, but EOS Utility won't recognize the camera when plugged in as earlier versions used to do). Hewlett-Packard refused to update drivers for it's S-20 film scanner between XP SP-2 and SP-3, rendering a perfectly usable film scanner inoperable.


I just checked, and you can still open Pro1 Raw files in Canon DPP. You can also open them in Photoshop.

The question is whether you can open the files or not. It's not about Hewlett-Packard or film scanners or other devices.

harrygilbert wrote:
And how much longer will Adobe make DNG converter available?


Doesn't matter. DNG is open source.

harrygilbert wrote:
Decades? Heck, PCs today are technically obsolete after 6 months, and often functionally obsolete after 2 years as interfaces, peripherals, and operating systems are constantly superseded.


Again, that's not the question. But you are wrong. Technically obsolete? Nonsense. You don't have to be caught up in consumerism and buy on a six month or two year cycle. My seven+ year old computer is running quite nicely beside my two month old computer. Just like DSLRs, they don't stop functioning just because a newer one becomes available.

harrygilbert wrote:
Go try and buy some backup tape cartridges. I've already run into newer PCs dropping support for parallel, series, and SCSI ports (my older tape drives), and hard drive interfaces older than SATA.


You know, a person has the most success responding when they actually read what I wrote. The part about active archiving / backup and migrating to new media.

It is foolish and approaching stupid to depend on obsolete old clunky tiny little bits of media. That's about the policy, without regard to any individual. The amount of data stored on them is so small and they take up too much space.

Consolidate data on new media, especially if you are buying new computers every two years or more frequently as you advise. Check media every few months. A good way to do that is to rotate backup media. Have three copies (one off-site) of any files that are archived (infrequently accessed, not connected to the computer as a rule). Then when bits start to drop off tapes, one can do the migration that should have been done years ago. I last used tape backup in the mid 1990s.

harrygilbert wrote:
On the other hand, I still have hundreds of pages of color negatives and slides that I can scan in and process digitally, not to mention thousands of black & white prints -- some dating to the 1900s.


By that you mean the 1990s. I have negatives and prints from the 1960s. I'm not unaware of their characteristics. I have set up a darkroom again to print and I have begun scanning stuff.

You would be well advised to scan everything in ASAP so that you no longer have no backup for those images as they increasingly risk mildew, fungus, mold, and damage from residual chemicals, air pollution, and dye fade. Your colour negatives, slides and prints are the most vulnerable. Further, they are at risk to theft, vandalism, and fire. Let's not forget that some of them can be mis-located and end up being discarded by mistake, too.



Feb 20, 2012 at 07:37 AM
kakomu
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p.2 #11 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Fr3d wrote:
1. Use raid (Level 1) disks locally (content is mirrored to 2 identical disks in case one fails)
2. Have a copy of all your files on a (raid1) disk OFF SITE (doesn't cost money to retrieve)
3. Have a copy of all your files in a cloud storage service (costs money to retrieve)


RAID is not a backup. The only reason to use RAID 1 is to maintain uptime. Otherwise, it adds complication, especially if you're using hardware RAID.



Feb 20, 2012 at 01:19 PM
Fr3d
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p.2 #12 · How long will RAW files be readable?


kakomu wrote:
RAID is not a backup. The only reason to use RAID 1 is to maintain uptime. Otherwise, it adds complication, especially if you're using hardware RAID.


RAID 1 is just for local storage safety in case one disk fails. Raid 1 copies the content you
write to a mounted disk to two instead of one disk. Trust me, you will prefer to have a RAID disk
instead of having to retrieve you files from another location or some cloud storage in case your
local disk fails. This is just one component of a good backup strategy.

There is no added complication if you use an external disk with hardware raid
(Western Digital Studio II, Lacie etc...).








Feb 20, 2012 at 02:18 PM
kakomu
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p.2 #13 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Fr3d wrote:
RAID 1 is just for local storage safety in case one disk fails. Raid 1 copies the content you
write to a mounted disk to two instead of one disk.


Again, the main goal of RAID 1 is to maintain uptime in case of hardware failure. It fails the most basic tenets of a backup. If you accidentally delete a file on a RAID array, this action is mirrored on both drives, so you cannot retrieve the data. If your OS goes belly up in a catastrophic fashion, it doesn't protect the data. This is compared to a separate backup system with regular, incremental backups.

Hardware RAID adds complication considering there's no standard implementation of data on a RAID array. This means that data may not be retrievable if the hardware goes bad unless you can find the same make and model. Software RAID is less of a problem in this regard, but can also be difficult to set up.

Fr3d wrote:
Trust me, you will prefer to have a RAID disk
instead of having to retrieve you files from another location or some cloud storage in case your
local disk fails. This is just one component of a good backup strategy.


A quality backup will have 2 copies of all data (more copies for more important data). If your local OS disk fails, you just get a new HDD, reinstall your OS and retrieve your data from your local backup. If your local backup fails, you get a new HDD and re back up your data. If both fail at the same time (not likely), then you can get it from whatever off-site backup or optical discs you may have.

In either situation, RAID 1 will just be a means to maintain uptime between failure and integration of a new disk. It doesn't offer any intrinsic backup benefits.

Fr3d wrote:
There is no added complication if you use an external disk with hardware raid
(Western Digital Studio II, Lacie etc...).

If the disk enclosure fails and you want to retrieve the data from the disk, you're more than likely screwed unless you can find the exact same enclosure elsewhere.

Edited on Feb 20, 2012 at 02:37 PM · View previous versions



Feb 20, 2012 at 02:33 PM
jerrykur
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p.2 #14 · How long will RAW files be readable?


kakomu wrote:
RAID is not a backup. The only reason to use RAID 1 is to maintain uptime. Otherwise, it adds complication, especially if you're using hardware RAID.


Exactly. This is the first thing mentioned when you go to any NAS forum and hear about someone whose unit when crazy and trashed the disks.

With that said I use NASes in Raid configurations. They are located miles apart and I backup one with the other.





Feb 20, 2012 at 02:33 PM
Monito
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p.2 #15 · How long will RAW files be readable?


kakomu wrote:
RAID is not a backup. The only reason to use RAID 1 is to maintain uptime. Otherwise, it adds complication, especially if you're using hardware RAID.


+1

A RAID unit should be considered as a single unit. A file on the raid unit is going to be a single copy of the file because corruptions and deletions get transmitted to the other stripes / mirrors.

A simple and very cost effective plan is to use bare drives. I have the internal "drive" and an internal bay with a door where I lodge a bare drive. This means that the drive gets cooled by the system.

I back the internal "drive" on to the bare drive regularly. If I'm away for an extended period, I remove the bare drive and hide it. Every so often (about once a month) I visit my safe deposit box at the bank and swap the drive there. If a new file is very important I can copy it to a "cloudy" location for up to a month.

That way every file exists in three copies and one of them is off-site. If a catastrophe strikes and I only have the off-site copy, I've lost two week's work (on 'average', a month max), but I would have much bigger fish to fry than worrying about a month's work.

I put "drive" in quotes because it is three drives: a 55 GB OS partition (simulates a 60 GB drive, with no pagefile and no hibernation file) on a 200 GB drive, a 500 GB data drive, and a 1000 GB (1 TB) photo drive. The bare drive is 1.5 TB and thus backs everything up.

As capacities increase, you migrate everything to bigger drives.

Edited on Feb 20, 2012 at 02:42 PM · View previous versions



Feb 20, 2012 at 02:37 PM
kakomu
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p.2 #16 · How long will RAW files be readable?


jerrykur wrote:
With that said I use NASes in Raid configurations. They are located miles apart and I backup one with the other.


My latest file server (for my mom's business backup) is also running on software RAID 1, but this is for the convenience of not having to reinstall everything from scratch, if an HDD crashes. Hence, uptime.



Feb 20, 2012 at 02:41 PM
Fr3d
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p.2 #17 · How long will RAW files be readable?


kakomu wrote:
Again, the main goal of RAID 1 is to maintain uptime in case of hardware failure. It fails the most basic tenets of a backup. If you accidentally delete a file on a RAID array, this action is mirrored on both drives, so you cannot retrieve the data. If your OS goes belly up in a catastrophic fashion, it doesn't protect the data. This is compared to a separate backup system with regular, incremental backups.

Hardware RAID adds complication considering there's no standard implementation of data on a RAID array. This means that data may not be retrievable if the hardware
...Show more

You seem to be very strict about the technical aspect. However it makes perfect sense
to use a raid disk to prevent data loss in case of disk failure. It doesn't replace a detached
backup disk but it is one way to increase data security on location while working with the files.
I had a disk fail me while editing. No more since I use raid1.



Feb 20, 2012 at 02:54 PM
kakomu
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p.2 #18 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Fr3d wrote:
You seem to be very strict about the technical aspect. However it makes perfect sense
to use a raid disk to prevent data loss in case of disk failure. It doesn't replace a detached
backup disk but it is one way to increase data security on location while working with the files.
I had a disk fail me while editing. No more since I use raid1.


In your own example, the RAID1 array only maintained uptime. Using RAID1 does nothing for data security. If you accidentally delete a file on a RAID1 array, it doesn't save the file.



Feb 20, 2012 at 03:06 PM
15Bit
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p.2 #19 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Fr3d wrote:
You seem to be very strict about the technical aspect. However it makes perfect sense
to use a raid disk to prevent data loss in case of disk failure. It doesn't replace a detached
backup disk but it is one way to increase data security on location while working with the files.
I had a disk fail me while editing. No more since I use raid1.


I know it sounds like they are being pedantic about this, but they are right - a RAID 1 provides very little extra protection against data loss than just having a single drive. Think about all the ways you can lose (or have lost) data. The common ways (in no particular order) i can think of are:

1. I deleted the file, or copied an old copy over the newer one.
2. I made a "mistake" when reinstalling windows / formatting a drive
3. Power problems causing brownout / dodgy cable
4. My Disk controller had a "moment"
5. My disk died / suffered corruption

I've had all these happen, and the only one where a RAID would help is 5. In terms of frequency, i'd estimate i'd say i've had 2 or 3 drive failures in 15 years that actually caused data loss. Mostly i've had the failing disks caught by SMART tools and replaced them. If you're needing to access a backup only every 3-5 years due to not having a RAID, i'd say that was quite a low frequency compared to the files lost to other accidents.

With respect to RAID, i've run a software RAID 5 for many years and i can tell you its not a zero hassle thing to own. I've not had a disk controller go completely beserk on me yet, but i know people who have. With modern disks you also have to be very careful, as automatic time-outs on consumer drives can have your RAID in an almost permanent state of rebuild.



Feb 20, 2012 at 03:45 PM
nathanlake
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p.2 #20 · How long will RAW files be readable?


Fr3d wrote:
The safe way is go use a format that nearly everyone is using (like Canon or Nikon). You can be 100% sure that as soon
as this format becomes unsupported someone else will come up with the idea to sell a piece of software that enables
you to read and convert this format to something current because the market is big enough.

As for backup strategy:

1. Use raid (Level 1) disks locally (content is mirrored to 2 identical disks in case one fails)
2. Have a copy of all your files on a (raid1) disk OFF SITE (doesn't cost money to retrieve)
3. Have
...Show more


Adobe has a free converter for most RAW file formats to DNG.



Feb 20, 2012 at 04:17 PM
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