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Archive 2011 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

zhangyue
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Hi,

with the NEX-7 and NEX-5N introduced, a mirror-less APS-C camera with EVF, how many of you will still buy M8/M8.2 at $2000-$3000 in terms of picture quality and useability? (Let’s put down emotion factor like build quality, pride of ownership :-)

I start another thread here:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1044134

This is slightly different topic I am also like to see opinion from members here.

Thanks,
Michael

Edited on Sep 15, 2011 at 12:23 AM · View previous versions

Sep 14, 2011 at 02:05 PM

jotdeh
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

In favour of NEX
- better high ISO
- focus accurately anywhere you want, no need for focus+recompose, no need to calibrate the RF from time to time.
- no parallax error, so compose like you want
- smaller (for the 5)

In favour of M8
- 1.3 crop (the NEX are 1.5)

Sep 14, 2011 at 02:25 PM

JonasY
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

M8 for red dot, ergonomics and viewfinder, nex for iq. The lack of an ovf on nex is still a deal breaker for many.

Sep 14, 2011 at 02:33 PM

millsart
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

I don't think its possible to separate things like build quality, pride of ownership, the true RF shooting experience etc from a Leica camera, its integral to it IMHO

NEX5N (and most likely NEX7) are going to deliver more features, better resolution, far cleaner high ISO, faster framerates, much nicer LCD, you name it.

On paper the 5N just blows the doors off the M8.2, and for 1/4th the price.

We don't live on paper though, or perhaps, should I say, just on a web forum. In the real world where cameras are actual things you feel and touch, all this talk about whats got the better 1's and 0's rather goes out the window.

Its like talking cars, such a 65 GTO is going to get beat in every possible catergory my any modern sports car, price, airbags, abs, far better milage, faster, handles better etc.

But whats more fun to go out and actually drive

When your behind the wheel of a nice classic car do you really car that theres no iPod jack ?

Not hardly

As such, you simply can't take the emotional and tangible out of an equation

Sep 14, 2011 at 02:35 PM

zhangyue
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Thanks for your all reply.
jotdeh, JonasY
That is what I thought. Thank you for confirm it for me.

Millsart, I can't agree more about what you say. I am the kind of person may buy the M instead in the end.

The question I asked here is other me trying to persuade myself don't do it: it is not good for you to spend another $3000 for your personal pleasure

Thanks.

Sep 14, 2011 at 02:50 PM

Mescalamba
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

If you can stick with 10 mpix and pretty much base ISO only photos (color ones, BW is capable of more), then M8.2 is really nice choice. It doesnt have AA so its really sharp (especially with Leica M lens). Only downside is weak IR filter (on other hand, its pretty easy to do IR photos with that).

From build quality side and handling, definitely Leica. M8.2 can probably outlive you.

Im not snob, but Sony compared to Leica seems really cheap made.

Edited on Jul 19, 2012 at 03:15 PM · View previous versions

Sep 14, 2011 at 03:57 PM

najibs
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

jotdeh wrote:
In favour of NEX
- better high ISO
- focus accurately anywhere you want, no need for focus+recompose, no need to calibrate the RF from time to time.
- no parallax error, so compose like you want
- smaller (for the 5)

In favour of M8
- 1.3 crop (the NEX are 1.5)

In terms of specs, the NEX kills the M8, but you don't shoot an M8 for specs. You do it for the experience it gives you, and the ability to use the wonderful Leica M system.

My M8 has terrible performance at high ISO's, anything above 640 is grainy and above ISO1250 unusable, yet I still love the camera more than my 5D's. In fact, I haven't used my 5D's since getting the M8 a few months ago.

There is jsut something special and different about whooting with a Leica. I used to be one of those Leica bashers who thought they were just grossly over priced slow ameras, but I was very wrong. Rengefinders are not for everyone, thats for sure, but I've loved the experience in the short time I've had it and Im hooked.

Sep 14, 2011 at 04:26 PM

ocean2059
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Mescalamba wrote:
If you can stick with 10 mpix and pretty much base ISO only photos (color ones, BW is capable of more), then M8.2 is really nice choice. It doesnt have AA so its really sharp (especially with Leica M lens). Only downside is weak IR filter (on other hand, its pretty easy to do IR photos with that).

From build quality side and handling, definetily Leica. M8.2 can probably outlive you.

Im not snob, but Sony compared to Leica seems really cheap made.

Totally agree! If you are using base ISO, the image quality from M8/8.2 is very hard to beat when using top Leica glasses (28/2 ASPH, 35/1.4 ASPH, and 50/1.4 ASPH). I am getting NEX-5N but I won't sell the M8.

Cheers,

Sep 14, 2011 at 04:32 PM

zhangyue
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

I know that is gonna happen with so many loyal Leica costumers here. I totally understand what you guys saying and hopefully, join you guys soon. Just love my D700 with ZF so far. Sometime, I prefer the weight and handling of D700. though Leica lens is really temping

ocean2059, with 28/2 ASPH, 35/1.4 ASPH, and 50/1.4 ASPH, we are talking about 13 grand on lens. and I bet use them with NEX will not take any inferior pics

This bring a question: Is there an adaptor can use ZF, ZE lens on M system?

Though it may looks weird.

Sep 14, 2011 at 05:11 PM

ocean2059
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

zhangyue wrote:
I know that is gonna happen with so many loyal Leica costumers here. I totally understand what you guys saying and hopefully, join you guys soon. Just love my D700 with ZF so far. Sometime, I prefer the weight and handling of D700. though Leica lens is really temping

ocean2059, with 28/2 ASPH, 35/1.4 ASPH, and 50/1.4 ASPH, we are talking about 13 grand on lens. and I bet use them with NEX will not take any inferior pics

This bring a question: Is there an adaptor can use ZF, ZE lens on M system?

Though it may looks weird.

Well, Nikon D700 is a wonderful camera, no question about that, especially with ZF lenses. But with Leica M camera, it's just different experience. As for if the top Leica M lenses will be equally good on NEX bodies, I'm sure they will. But given the choice, I will use my Leica M lenses on M8. For me, I'm buying NEX 5N to mainly use my Contax G lenses and Leica R lenses. ZF/ZE lenses are not rangefinder coupled so even if you are able to mount them on a M body, you won't be able to confirm focus.

Cheers,

Sep 14, 2011 at 07:08 PM

zhangyue
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

ZF/ZE lenses are not rangefinder coupled so even if you are able to mount them on a M body, you won't be able to confirm focus.

Thanks for the reply, guess I lack some fundamental background on Rangefinder M system.

Sep 14, 2011 at 07:16 PM

rsrsrs
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

hi,
i would like to refresh this thread and see if somebody moves from Leica to Sony or
the other way around ...

r-)

Jul 19, 2012 at 07:37 AM

FlyPenFly
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

If I were going to a shoot to support my livelihood, I would take a NEX.

If I were going to enjoy the experience of shooting I would take a well adjusted Leica of any kind.

Jul 19, 2012 at 07:57 AM

Makten
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

najibs wrote:
In terms of specs, the NEX kills the M8...

Exactly what specs? I definitely prefer the IQ of the M8 at low ISO compared to the NEX-5N. And the 28/2 gives a nice, flat field on the M8 instead of a heavily curved one that often needs stopping down for sharp corners on the NEX.

Viewfinder? Well, the EVF of the NEX cameras is a joke compared to the RF of the M8. The reason I switched from M8 to NEX-5 was that the battery died after like 4-5 frames at -15 Celsius, and that the camera doesn't allow closeups or accurate framing.

Jul 19, 2012 at 08:08 AM

douglasf13
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

You might wait a few more months to see if Leica brings an M10 this fall. I'm seeing the M9 going for $4200-5000 on the used market already, and an M10 will surely bring a glut of M9s to the market. If the M9 gets to around $3K or less, I may bite.

Jul 19, 2012 at 08:57 AM

mawz
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
Exactly what specs? I definitely prefer the IQ of the M8 at low ISO compared to the NEX-5N. And the 28/2 gives a nice, flat field on the M8 instead of a heavily curved one that often needs stopping down for sharp corners on the NEX.

Viewfinder? Well, the EVF of the NEX cameras is a joke compared to the RF of the M8. The reason I switched from M8 to NEX-5 was that the battery died after like 4-5 frames at -15 Celsius, and that the camera doesn't allow closeups or accurate framing.

The NEX offers better Dynamic Range, better colour accuracy, more resolution, less noise at all ISO's, for both the 5N and the 7. It doesn't offer Leica's colour signature or hardware compensations for RF wide projection issues.

Personally? I'll take the EVF over the Leica viewfinder (which is nice, but not even the best RF viewfinder on the market). Accurate focusing across the frame wins for me. But then again I've never drank the kool-aid on RF viewfinders (I like them, but have a mild preference for TTL viewing)

Jul 19, 2012 at 09:30 AM

JonasY
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

rsrsrs wrote:
hi,
i would like to refresh this thread and see if somebody moves from Leica to Sony or
the other way around ...

r-)

I switched from a D700 to an M8 after I posted in this thread. The weight reduction is a huge relief but of course the M8 has its limitations. But it's a joy to shoot with, and on the contrary to what some say it's not restricted to base ISO. ISO 800 (or 640 in Leica world) will look fine for anything but critical work. And as long as you keep it to ISO 160, and use a high quality lens (and the best thing is that most lenses for M are of very very high quality), IQ is hard to match for almost any other camera.

I might get myself a Nex 5N as a compliment in the future. But a good OVF is still way more nice to use than any EVF of today. And the Nex 7 doesn't play well with every M-lens, and is a bit too expensive imo. What I really want is full frame and Sony doesn't offer that in a Nex body (yet).

The M9 is very close to what I want but with a steep price tag and still too many quirks to be perfect. I think it's hard to substitute a Leica when you're used to the feeling.

Jul 19, 2012 at 09:31 AM

michael49
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

The major issue for me with RF's (which many fail to consider) is the limitation with close focusing. I love the ability to take close ups, so that kills the RF concept for me.

Not being able to take shots like this makes a RF a non-starter for me....
(taken with NEX 5N)....
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/photos/i-sxV2PdV/0/XL/i-sxV2PdV-XL.jpg

Jul 19, 2012 at 11:12 AM

Makten
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

mawz wrote:
The NEX offers better Dynamic Range, better colour accuracy, more resolution, less noise at all ISO's, for both the 5N and the 7.

I don't care for laboratory measurments. The images still look better to me.

Accurate focusing across the frame wins for me.

Unfortunately, the non RF-tuned sensors of the NEX cameras makes that point a bit moot, because your corners will be out of focus when the middle is in, with many lenses.
But generally I want to agree. I'd rather take a good EVF over an RF if everything else was equal. But it's not.

I don't think we'll see a good compromise anytime soon.

Jul 19, 2012 at 11:19 AM

mawz
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
I don't care for laboratory measurments. The images still look better to me.

I've found that generally low-DR cameras produce nicer images straight out of the camera since they end up with a stronger contrast curve by default, but high-DR cameras produce files that can be turned into better images since you have more information and more control over what part of the luminance spectrum is emphasized in post. But they require more post-processing to get good images unless you want a low-contrast look. I definitely prefer the NEX colour signature to the M8's though, but that's an issue of taste.

As to the M8, I've never liked its look. But that's a general observation for me and Leica digitals, they simply don't produce a look that suits me, particularly the DMR and M8. I've seen some brilliant work from them though (including your's and telyt's).

Jul 19, 2012 at 12:20 PM

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