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Archive 2011 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

douglasf13
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

It's a little bit like comparing color slide and negative film. The M digitals seem more contrasty out of the box with a Kodachrome-esque color pallet, from what I've seen and read.

Jul 19, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Makten
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

In my opinion, DR is way overrated. Much more than usable high ISO (yes, they are often connected). I don't think I've ever shot a scene that demanded more DR than the M8 can handle. The key is not to overexpose the sensor, because it has all of the recovery possibilities in the shadows. With this sensor, you never have to crank ISO at all. It produces less noise at ISO 160 and pushed 4 stops in PP than shooting it at ISO 2500.

But then again, I seldom shoot at sunny days because I hate harsh light and "postcard" images.

Jul 19, 2012 at 01:02 PM

bentarrow
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

i have both. I would get the M8 first and then add nex 5n as a backup. During the day, from iso 160-640, Kodak's CCD sensor is pretty clean, and like most people said, it is an experience of shooting a range finder. For me it is not just about going home with nice pictures, I do this as a hobby and the experience and the feel I get from Leica M system is second to none, from focusing to shutter release.

When you have both camera in your hand, Leica M8 and the NEX 5n, the choice becomes VERY clear on which camera you would want to use. NEX feels like a toy.

NEX is in my opinion, the best mirrorless camera in the market in terms of features/size/ and technical specs which makes the perfect 2nd body/backup to M8.

Jul 19, 2012 at 01:09 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

I have 2 Zeiss Ikon film bodies (sold my M6 a few months ago) and a Ricoh GXR-M. I know this is not the subject of the discussion but you can draw parallels to what others have described in the previous posts. I've had the GXR for 6 months and I have shot totally 350 shots, mostly stupid snapshots around my apartment. I shoot in average 5-10 36 exposure rolls a month with the Ikons. The quality of the GXR blows away any film scan, but it just feels like a toy that I can't take it seriously. The experience of shooting with the Ikons despite the quality handicap is just so much better.

Jul 19, 2012 at 01:41 PM

Makten
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

edwardkaraa wrote:
I have 2 Zeiss Ikon film bodies (sold my M6 a few months ago) and a Ricoh GXR-M. I know this is not the subject of the discussion but you can draw parallels to what others have described in the previous posts. I've had the GXR for 6 months and I have shot totally 350 shots, mostly stupid snapshots around my apartment. I shoot in average 5-10 36 exposure rolls a month with the Ikons. The quality of the GXR blows away any film scan, but it just feels like a toy that I can't take it seriously. The experience...Show more →

Much of that experience is also lost with a digital rangefinder. Neither the M8 nor the M9 feels as good as an analog M (or Ikon for that matter, even if the difference is somewhat lesser). The non-hollowness of the body, the tactile feel of the film advance, the sound of the shutter, et cetera.

I wish I had the patience for shooting only film, but I don't.

Jul 19, 2012 at 01:48 PM

mawz
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
In my opinion, DR is way overrated. Much more than usable high ISO (yes, they are often connected). I don't think I've ever shot a scene that demanded more DR than the M8 can handle. The key is not to overexpose the sensor, because it has all of the recovery possibilities in the shadows. With this sensor, you never have to crank ISO at all. It produces less noise at ISO 160 and pushed 4 stops in PP than shooting it at ISO 2500.

But then again, I seldom shoot at sunny days because I hate harsh light and "postcard" images....Show more →

Not overexposing is key for any Digital, since sensors have a hard maximum to the amount of exposure they can handle. But the NEXen have a lot more detail in the shadows than the M8 does, due to the extra DR. There's still a noise floor with digital and it's a stop or two higher on the M8 than a NEX for a given exposure.

Jul 19, 2012 at 03:05 PM

Makten
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

mawz wrote:
Not overexposing is key for any Digital, since sensors have a hard maximum to the amount of exposure they can handle. But the NEXen have a lot more detail in the shadows than the M8 does, due to the extra DR. There's still a noise floor with digital and it's a stop or two higher on the M8 than a NEX for a given exposure.

The M8 sensor is very different from the NEX-5N. While you can pull back at least one stop of overexposure with the latter, the M8 tolerates no overexposure at all.
And of course the shadow detail is better with a modern CMOS than the Kodak KAF10500 CCD from 2006. But it's much better than you might think, if you use a good RAW converter.

Jul 19, 2012 at 03:10 PM

mawz
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
The M8 sensor is very different from the NEX-5N. While you can pull back at least one stop of overexposure with the latter, the M8 tolerates no overexposure at all.
And of course the shadow detail is better with a modern CMOS than the Kodak KAF10500 CCD from 2006. But it's much better than you might think, if you use a good RAW converter.

RAW overhead has nothing to do with the sensor and everything to do with the metering and the default curve applied at RAW conversion. The default curve applied to the 5N leaves that stop or two of headroom. Sony could easily have set the curve to leave no headroom and pick up a stop or two more room in the shadows. The DR of the sensor is the range between highlight clipping and the noise floor, not just the range that's shown in the default RAW conversion which is normally much smaller than what's available (for any camera).

The cleaner 5N sensor allows Sony to leave the headroom in the default conversion (and metering) while the M8 needs every bit of exposure it can get, so Leica had to eliminate the headroom to prevent noisy shadow issues at base ISO.

Jul 19, 2012 at 03:15 PM

douglasf13
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Yeah, the differences in so called highlight latitude essentially just means that metering is different between the two cameras. Most of my digital cameras meter differently, but, once I equalize the exposure (and maybe change a curve) so that the highlights are in the same place for the different cameras, the ability to push the shadows at the opposite end gives me a good DR comparison.

That being said, I still wouldn't mind picking up an M8 some time, now that they can be had under $2k.

Jul 19, 2012 at 03:56 PM

Makten
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

mawz wrote:
RAW overhead has nothing to do with the sensor and everything to do with the metering and the default curve applied at RAW conversion.

And the A/D conversion and internal processing of course. All cameras behave differently in the same RAW converter, at the same exposure. This applies even when you convert to DNG so that the converter has no clue of what camera was used.
Of course you can't "fill" the pixels more than til they are full, but the manufacturers don't rate ISO the same way and they don't use the same Gamma and processing prior to saving into RAW.

I've seen comparisons with a 5D MkII that gets blown away by an M9 regarding how much you can lift the shadows, at the same exposure. The NEX cameras are probably better than the 5D MkII in that respect, but the old Kodak sensors are really not that bad, considering their age.

------------

Edit: What I want to say is that an M8 still can give very, very nice IQ that still can hold up to the modern APS-C sensors in many ways. But not all of course.

Just for fun, this is the M8 shot at 1/4 second (handheld), ISO 640 and pushed 4 stops in ACR, which means ISO 10240. Not much to brag about these days, but I got home with a picture from the snowstorm instead of none. And I wouldn't have been able to either focus or frame in this light with the NEX-5N.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/Makten/L1009460.jpg

Jul 19, 2012 at 04:01 PM

mawz
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
Edit: What I want to say is that an M8 still can give very, very nice IQ that still can hold up to the modern APS-C sensors in many ways. But not all of course.

Just for fun, this is the M8 shot at 1/4 second (handheld), ISO 640 and pushed 4 stops in ACR, which means ISO 10240. Not much to brag about these days, but I got home with a picture from the snowstorm instead of none. And I wouldn't have been able to either focus or frame in this light with the NEX-5N.

That's a good shot, but the 5N should be able to focus & frame just fine in that light although the LV feed would have been jerky as heck. I've shot in similar with both the 5N and 7, shooting indoors in a dim bar.

Any SLR would have been out of the question though, not enough light to focus with an SLR finder. That's one area where RF finders have had a huge advantage over TTL finder prior to high-end EVF's.

Jul 19, 2012 at 08:16 PM

redisburning
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

mawz wrote:
That's a good shot, but the 5N should be able to focus & frame just fine in that light although the LV feed would have been jerky as heck. I've shot in similar with both the 5N and 7, shooting indoors in a dim bar.

when I played counterstrike I used a crt set at 120hz

Im pretty sure I would ragequit photography if I had to focus on a <20fps elv

plus, you still get tunnel vision; afterall it's a ttl finder.

there are coincident rangefinder cameras, and then there's everything else. at least that's how I see it.

Jul 19, 2012 at 09:06 PM

mawz
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

redisburning wrote:
when I played counterstrike I used a crt set at 120hz

Im pretty sure I would ragequit photography if I had to focus on a <20fps elv

plus, you still get tunnel vision; afterall it's a ttl finder.

there are coincident rangefinder cameras, and then there's everything else. at least that's how I see it.

Frankly, unless I'm trying to track a fast moving object the slow refresh rate in really low light is vastly outweighed by the bright image. Nothing beats an EVF for framing & focusing in really low light. Then again, I remember when 15fps was good performance in VQuake, I'm a LOT less bothered by low framerates than many.

I've never seen much use in the extra framing around the framelines in an RF, IMHO it just makes up for the inaccurate framing and parallax error that the framelines provide and you still have to deal with the large amount of wasted space when using framelines smaller than the widest set.

The best thing about an RF finder in my experience is the zero blackout (likewise, the worst thing about EVF's in my experience is finder blackout, they're still not as good at blackout as a flippy mirror let alone an RF or TLR finder).

Jul 19, 2012 at 09:41 PM

Makten
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Jul 20, 2012 at 01:24 AM

zhangyue
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

rsrsrs wrote:
hi,
i would like to refresh this thread and see if somebody moves from Leica to Sony or
the other way around ...

r-)

Well, I am the one who ask if I can put ZF lens on M

I bought a NEX-C3 after this and another discuss thread and shoot only about 3-400 frame, then I almost never touch it no matter how 'great' the sensor it has. I also bought a M9, I basically have two different feeling about it during different period of ownership: first one is about 2 Month, I feel frustrated about its output, the color curve and profile is not I used to my D700, and manual focus is slower than use D700 focus by eyes. I plan to sell it at that time. 2nd one is after it and till now that I start to appreciate it and take it anywhere with me if possible. I use it a lot more than my nikon and ZF. and bought a M3 since then.

To summarize my feeling in short is Leica M is a wonderful photographer tool, I rate it usability higher than any digital body I have used.

Today, I was in Sony store to play NEX-7, I can quickly master most of feature it offers since I have experience with my C3, but I'd say 80% of them is a waste of engineer time and CPU power for seasoned photographer, it has tons of picture styles, controls but all it does is slow down/confuse me in field if I need something quick. I must admit it feels a lot better than C3 with more button and I may still buy it since I plan to have 2nd body to have different focal length available quick for the forth coming trip back to China. M9 or M8's price is out of question.

I wouldn't say M suits for everybody, just like you guys already stated that there are so many things you don't like it, which is true in a sense like no high FPS, Macro, inaccurate frame, High ISO performance, crappy electronics. But, it is all about trade off and priority. For me:

1. It is designed for photographer prefer everything under controlled by 'you' but not camera.
2. I like out side of frame a lot, It is really a plus for me during composition,especially environment portrait. I have much more choice to frame during composition. Thus, 50mm is my favorite focal length and 35cron with bug eye is my favorite wide. I have to crop and rotate anyway even with D700 if I shoot something quick and spontaneous.
3, no blank out is another one I like especially take portrait of my kids. Though this has nothing to do with capture but shooting experience.

in addition to above: compare to Nikon
4. Size
5. Handhold shooting
and compare to NEX,
6. no crop, or less crop in case of M8/8.2 (this is actually a real important one for me)

Dynamic range is lower than SOTA sensor now, no question about it. but CCD sensor also offer a special quality about the color if PP right, which is not available to those SOTA brand.(almost too smooth to my like) I will just have to deal with it for occasional blow up something either at right or left of histogram. Again, it is you, who will make that choice during capture.

With more use of Leica M system, my emphasis is focused a lot more on the interesting photo itself than technically better picture. Everybody rave Leica lens, and trash Leica digital Body, but to me, pair M9 with some ZM, or Voigtlander Nocton 35/1.2, is more than enough to satisfy Leica's sensor

As you can see, to rate a tool, there always trade off and we always need understand our priority to make judgement. In my case, I love it.

What a pit nobody else seems interesting to offer something simple like this with decent build quality body to us. Leica's limit capability on modern electronics actually helps them

Jul 20, 2012 at 05:25 AM

mawz
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
Ah, so you were there? Seriously, how the hell do you think you know what the light was like?

You gave me most of the exposure (1/4 second, ISO 640 pushed 4 stops in post for EI 10240), which is a solid indication of how much light there was. The only assumption I made on that is that it was a fast lens (f1.2-1.4) wide open. Not very much light, but more than doable with a 5N or 7.

Wouldn't want to try with a DSLR though.

Jul 20, 2012 at 07:21 AM

Makten
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

mawz wrote:
[You gave me most of the exposure (1/4 second, ISO 640 pushed 4 stops in post for EI 10240), which is a solid indication of how much light there was. The only assumption I made on that is that it was a fast lens (f1.2-1.4) wide open. Not very much light, but more than doable with a 5N or 7.

I don't know how you use your NEX, but I'm totally certain that it would be impossible to focus at this distance in heavy snowfall and very low light at f/2 (shot with Summicron 28). I've several times had to just give up and go home when the light is low, since it gets nearly impossible to frame the shot, not to mention focusing. The M8 is a breeze to focus in low light, which is kind of ironic as the sensor is very much noisier.

Wouldn't want to try with a DSLR though.
I think a D3 and modern, fast lens would do it.

Jul 20, 2012 at 10:33 AM

mawz
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

Makten wrote:
I don't know how you use your NEX, but I'm totally certain that it would be impossible to focus at this distance in heavy snowfall and very low light at f/2 (shot with Summicron 28). I've several times had to just give up and go home when the light is low, since it gets nearly impossible to frame the shot, not to mention focusing. The M8 is a breeze to focus in low light, which is kind of ironic as the sensor is very much noisier.

My experience is just about the opposite, I can focus and frame with the NEX-7 in light where I'd struggle with my Bessa R (which has a viewfinder comparable to an M8). The gain in the EVF is a major win for real low light shooting. It's not easy, but it is better than anything else I've used in that sort of light.

I think a D3 and modern, fast lens would do it.

Relying on AF and with an AF Assist lamp? Sure. Through the viewfinder? Been there, tried that, don't want to again. It's just way too dark to frame or focus even though the sensor will deliver an image with few problems. SLR finders are the worst of the three options we're discussing for really low-light work. If I was using a D3 in that situation I'd want to be using the LV feed.

Jul 20, 2012 at 10:47 AM

rscheffler
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

douglasf13 wrote:
It's a little bit like comparing color slide and negative film. The M digitals seem more contrasty out of the box with a Kodachrome-esque color pallet, from what I've seen and read.

At least according to Thorsten Overgaard, the Kodachrome look is not coincidental.

Regarding EVF vs. rangefinder OVF: I've used the GXR in plenty of low light situations, such as dimly lit restaurants, where the EVF was mostly black and made framing nearly impossible to shoot. Only reason I got images was because the lens was very wide and I could scale focus. At least with the rangefinder OVF I am able to compose in such situations. Focus can be difficult if there isn't enough light to illuminate the RF spot, but I've yet to experience a situation where it was impossible to focus.

Jul 20, 2012 at 11:20 AM

mawz
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Both Crop senser: M8/8.2 or NEX?

rscheffler wrote:
At least according to Thorsten Overgaard, the Kodachrome look is not coincidental.

Regarding EVF vs. rangefinder OVF: I've used the GXR in plenty of low light situations, such as dimly lit restaurants, where the EVF was mostly black and made framing nearly impossible to shoot. Only reason I got images was because the lens was very wide and I could scale focus. At least with the rangefinder OVF I am able to compose in such situations. Focus can be difficult if there isn't enough light to illuminate the RF spot, but I've yet to experience a situation where it was impossible...Show more →

Does the GXR not have an Auto-Gain option for the EVF? The NEX certainly does and that provides enough gain in low-light simulations.

Jul 20, 2012 at 01:10 PM

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