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Archive 2011 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

ZoneV
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Hello!

I like to take photos with lenses with different drawing style.
I have a Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2, a Meyer Goerlitz Trioplan 100/2.8, a Pentacon 135/2.8, Steinheil Quinar 135/2.8, and since short time a Helios 40-1.

They are all very good lenses in their own way.
But they have most times a more or less uniform bokeh - unsharp highlights. Ok, the Trioplan wide open not :-)

But I was searching for a more Gaussian curved intensity profile - and I found reviews of the Sony 135 STF lens.
But I did not want to buy that lens for my Canon - its a modern lens and its from the Sony brand - and much to expensive for me.
But I tried to copy the apodization filter system. After some thinking I decided to try slide film as a filter, and the results are promising. Sure not 100% the same as with a real high grade apodisation filter like in the Sony STF lens, but good enough for some images.

At the moment I work with 135 slides, but probably I need 120 film for bigger aperture diameter - I place the film near the aperture.

At the moment it seems that I could not show images here in the new topic, show them later.

You could see all the image, most in full EOS 5D resolution, and more text on my Do It Yourself apodization filter page.

Sep 03, 2011 at 03:10 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Here the setup of the apodisation filter and the lens - a Helios 44-4 here:


	http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Apodization-Element-.jpg

A simple test image


	http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Bokehlicious-.jpg

Full resolution image

Here a photo that shows more of what I want the lens for:


	http://www.4photos.de/galerie/Natur/slides/L%C3%B6wenzahn.jpg

And another one:


	http://www.4photos.de/galerie/Natur/slides/Malerische-Natur.jpg

At the moment I make tests with another apodisation filter in the Helios 44-4 with different characteristic - less apodisation, and more normal bokeh.
And I installed filters in a wide angle and a telephoto lens too.

Edited on Sep 03, 2011 at 05:03 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2011 at 03:18 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Hi ZoneV,

I share your desire for lenses with different drawing styles. I wonder why you don't apply the apodization filter in digital post-processing. Don't get me wrong; for me, the process of taking the image and getting it as close as possible to the final version 'in camera' is of high importance. OTOH, I use as few optical filters as possible (i.e. usually none), in order to maximize the quality of the digital image that I capture in the camera.

Cheers, Jim

Sep 03, 2011 at 03:55 PM

FlyPenFly
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Can't argue with the awesomeness of your results.

Sep 03, 2011 at 03:56 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

I do not have such filters in software that is easy usable.
And - I like to see at the moment of capture as good as possible what I get - simple WYSIWYG mentality.

Furthermore I like to tinker

I even build things I didn´t need.

I don´t use UV filter to protect my lenses - but I use filters when it is needed. I rather use IR transmission filters than make a look alike IR image.
The quality difference is in most (not all) images not very high between the Helios 44-4 with apodisation filter and Helios 44-2 as a reference. That is good enought for me.

Sep 03, 2011 at 04:21 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

ZoneV wrote:
... I rather use IR transmission filters than make a look alike IR image.

Me too. I also like to tinker. Just asking.

Sep 03, 2011 at 04:24 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

jcolwell wrote:
Me too. I also like to tinker. Just asking.

If so, I suppose you know my other DIY work, and my photo tinkerers heaven and hell?

Today I got some free time (wife and child went into the city), and could implement these apodization filter in two more lenses, and could optimize my Canon FD 24/1.4 mount conversion.

Sep 03, 2011 at 04:47 PM

wickerprints
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Wait, so let me see if I got this right: you want your bokeh to look like you applied a Gaussian blur to a sharp image in Photoshop?

Now, far be it from me to dismiss the legitimacy of such an aesthetic goal...but one of the things photographers try to point out about photographic bokeh is how the blur circles *don't* look like a post-processing effect. I like smooth bokeh too but I don't want it to be *that* smooth! If I did, I would've just done it in post.

But as for the technical aspects of the idea, I think it's quite interesting. I especially appreciate the ingenuity of using a section of film in the lens.

Sep 03, 2011 at 04:49 PM

carstenw
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Wicker, take a look at those samples again. They don't look like they were blurred. There is a very nice soft-on-sharp look to them, like some lenses give, for example the Leica 80 Lux wide open.

Sep 03, 2011 at 04:54 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

wickerprints wrote:
Wait, so let me see if I got this right: you want your bokeh to look like you applied a Gaussian blur to a sharp image in Photoshop?

...
Yes, but I don´t like to mask the unsharp regions in Photoshop.
And I think it will not be the same, because the blur intensity varys with the distance in the real thing - not so in Photoshop.

wickerprints wrote:
Now, far be it from me to dismiss the legitimacy of such an aesthetic goal...but one of the things photographers try to point out about photographic bokeh is how the blur circles *don't* look like a post-processing effect. I like smooth bokeh too but I don't want it to be *that* smooth! If I did, I would've just done it in post.
...

I could vary how smooth it is with the filter design. The first images here and on my webpage are made with a very strong apodization filter. Now I have some filters with not so strong apodisation effect in the lenses. But I am no longer depended on the normal lens bokeh.
I think about a transmission like a half circle - one still the borders, but it is much smoother than normal lenses.

Post processing effects seems to copy the real apodisation thing, because it is a good method to take the attention away from the background detail. Some may think it is photo shopped, but it isn't. It is only unfamiliar.

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:02 PM

wickerprints
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

carstenw wrote:
Wicker, take a look at those samples again. They don't look like they were blurred. There is a very nice soft-on-sharp look to them, like some lenses give, for example the Leica 80 Lux wide open.

I did look at the samples. In fact, I also looked at sample images produced by the Minolta/Sony 135/2.8[T/4.5] STF. What I've concluded is that the bokeh of such a lens does not look like typical lens blur with a sharply defined blur circle, but like a Gaussian blur that could have been applied in post (to a certain extent). And that is precisely the intended effect.

Personally, I don't like the way it looks. The bokeh is *too* soft. For me, a great deal of the visual interest in the bokeh is not how smooth the blur is rendered, but how the blur circles interact.

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:05 PM

wickerprints
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

ZoneV wrote:
Yes, but I don´t like to mask the unsharp regions in Photoshop.

I can definitely understand and appreciate that! Masking is a pain in the rear.

And I think it will not be the same, because the blur intensity varys with the distance in the real thing - not so in Photoshop.

This is a very good point.

I could vary how smooth it is with the filter design. The first images here and on my webpage are made with a very strong apodization filter. Now I have some filters with not so strong apodisation effect in the lenses. But I am no longer depended on the normal lens bokeh.

Yes, I noticed that in your tutorial that you played with different varieties of transitions.

Again, it's mostly a question of personal taste. From a technical standpoint, a really sophisticated way to implement such a design in the lens would be to construct an opening for a drop-in filter just behind the diaphragm, and then offer a variety of resin or glass filters with various density profiles for creative effects. Then you could even implement things like coded apertures, and even those (now cliche) heart- and star-shaped bokeh patterns. Sort of like an unholy marriage between a Lensbaby and a real lens.

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:12 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

wickerprints wrote:
...
Personally, I don't like the way it looks. The bokeh is *too* soft. For me, a great deal of the visual interest in the bokeh is not how smooth the blur is rendered, but how the blur circles interact.

For the defined blur circles I have lenses like the Trioplan 100/2.8 and use it wide open. Or many other lenses with normal bokeh.

I have no problem to admit, that at some of the comparison images I made, the normal bokeh ones looks much better to me.
I don´t think apodized lenses are better, they are different, and in some rare cases I like the way they render.
And I need some time to learn to see the difference - and I will need some time to see which images are better made with an apodization lens, and which better not.

At the moment only ~2% of my lenses are "apodized" :-)

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:14 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

wickerprints wrote:
... From a technical standpoint, a really sophisticated way to implement such a design in the lens would be to construct an opening for a drop-in filter just behind the diaphragm, and then offer a variety of resin or glass filters with various density profiles for creative effects. Then you could even implement things like coded apertures, and even those (now cliche) heart- and star-shaped bokeh patterns. Sort of like an unholy marriage between a Lensbaby and a real lens.

:-)

Yes, thought about a possibility to change between normal and apodized - or even change the type of apodization. But it is a hard task to make such filter drop in near the iris. Probably I have to test how bad the position of the FD 300/2,8 filter is - as soon as I make 120 film filter slides (much more expensive in the lab - for that I should use the DIY exposing way with the monitor).
Thick resin filters need probably altered lens layout because of bigger difference in optical path.

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:20 PM

carstenw
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

wickerprints wrote:
I did look at the samples. In fact, I also looked at sample images produced by the Minolta/Sony 135/2.8[T/4.5] STF. What I've concluded is that the bokeh of such a lens does not look like typical lens blur with a sharply defined blur circle, but like a Gaussian blur that could have been applied in post (to a certain extent). And that is precisely the intended effect.

Personally, I don't like the way it looks. The bokeh is *too* soft. For me, a great deal of the visual interest in the bokeh is not how smooth the blur is rendered, but...Show more →

Well, just blurring something in Photoshop gives a very different look than these photos. These have the soft-over-sharp look that I like very much for certain applications. Perhaps you would get this if you duplicated a sharp photo into a new layer, blurred the new layer, and then applied 50% opacity. Anyway, if you don't like it, that is of course your choice.

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:26 PM

wickerprints
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

To be honest, I don't know how useful it would be to try to 'apodize' a long focal length lens--the blur circles under most circumstances are quite large and the transitions are generally already very smooth. Unless the background has elements with sharply defined changes in contrast (e.g., bright lights or specular highlights), it may be quite difficult to notice much effect. When I shoot with my 300/2.8 wide open to get a blurred background, the result is often (but not always!) very smooth as it is.

If anything, I would guess that fast lenses from around 35-85mm would benefit most from such a technique, as these designs tend to exhibit stronger aberrations for marginal rays (and thus less smooth bokeh).

Sep 03, 2011 at 05:30 PM

nixland
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

Thanks for sharing the tips and the links! Very interesting trick.

As I remember there was one FM member that did the apodization thing on his Rokkor lens but by burning the edge of the optic directly. I don't know exactly which element.
I'v been searching for his post but I can not find it.

Sep 03, 2011 at 11:24 PM

AhamB
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

You guys remember this experiment from Dim.ka? https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/701273/
I'm pretty sure that he had posted a few more shots with the Rokkor 58 in another thread, but I can't find it now...

I agree btw that the bokeh of the Minolta 135 STF is "too" smooth and featureless (making it look artificial). For my taste it is anyway. There may be some applications where it works, but in some comparison I've seen I just preferred the bokeh of the other lenses.

Wickerprints has a point that the interaction between blur discs is important. In a comparison between the 135L and ZE 100/2 done by denoir you could see that the blur discs of the Canon were bigger, but more sharply defined (individually recognizable) whereas the ones from the Zeiss had a softer contour and blended together more. Don't have the link handy for that one atm...

Sep 03, 2011 at 11:42 PM

Antje
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

That's pretty cool, actually. Nice work, Markus!

Sep 04, 2011 at 03:35 AM

ZoneV
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Build your own apodization lens - like Sony 135 STF

wickerprints wrote:
... If anything, I would guess that fast lenses from around 35-85mm would benefit most from such a technique, as these designs tend to exhibit stronger aberrations for marginal rays (and thus less smooth bokeh).

At the moment I have the Helios 44-4 58mm/2.0, a 200/3.5 and a 28mm/2.8 lens with apodization filters - now with the less strong filters inside.
For the 135 I did not find a lens that accepts the filter I have at the moment.
Think about using faster lenses too - my Porst 135/1.8 would be one of my dream lenses for that - but at them moment I have not opend it for search of the iris. But other fast lenses I want to inspect how easy the iris could be accessed.

AhamB wrote:
..
I agree btw that the bokeh of the Minolta 135 STF is "too" smooth and featureless (making it look artificial). For my taste it is anyway. There may be some applications where it works, but in some comparison I've seen I just preferred the bokeh of the other lenses.
...

Yes, those very strong smoothing is something too smooth. Because of that I like the possibility to define how smooth the filter should get (or if I like some special bokeh form).

I could not fully understand Dim.ka's idea: This metal mesh is burned on the border to black - and during that it is in contact with the lens, to get the lens coated with very small ash particles? No additional optic element sounds good. I thought a bit about smoke-coating of a lens with a candle under a rotating lens. But I have at the moment no gera to make the lens rotate some hours...
And I am not sure about the effect of not being at the iris position with the apodisation element. Test the latter with my 200/3.5.

nixland wrote:
...I have one converted to EOS mount. At first the bokeh looks strange. And in some shots it looks unpleasent for my eyes. The bokeh is too fake and too "gaussian blur", especially if the background is busy and too far from the closer object....

Ah, someone did it :-)
Yes, I see the same "problem" - it is uncommon and because of that looks strange I think. I have to learn for which distances which blur is best. The nearly Gaussian blur seems to be good if the fore-and background are very close together like my last images in my second post.
Now I am waiting to go testing my less Gaussian filters.

Sep 04, 2011 at 05:51 AM

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