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Archive 2011 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

JohnJ
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Bifurcator wrote:
...That's a good point. But really, only three in 20 years? ...

That may have been a bit of an exageration for effect. I've printed professionally (for reproduction) from time to time so I can certainly churn out a good quality print, but I don't have to like it.

JJ

Aug 22, 2011 at 06:04 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

I mean this is the most respectful way possible. Look through this thread at NikkorAIS' posts.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/983878/1

The ones on film are phenomenal. I find his digital shots lack the punch and emotion captured in the film shots. Perhaps it is just the images he chose from digital. They don't look to be processed at all. But the difference is huge.

Aug 22, 2011 at 06:36 PM

denoir
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Are you seriously asking people to judge film vs digital based on two sets of completely different photos? I'm honestly speechless. So I'll just leave you with this punchy and emotional shot (it must be since it was shot on film)

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/film/velvia50066.jpg

Aug 22, 2011 at 06:51 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

JohnJ wrote:
There are as many dramatically excellent digital prints as analog, and as many bad ones of each.

Since about 80 to 85% of the gallery shots I see are digital, for me, I would have to say that there are 80 to 85% more good and bad digital shots these days.

BTW of the film shots I see in galleries the vast majority of them are 8x10. I guess because the vast majority of gallery film shots I see are from 135 stock.

The APS-C and FF printings hold their detail well even at 16x20 so I see a lot of those.

I rarely see any large or medium format images - digital or film... Maybe twice a year a gallery will feature a photographer who shoots MF...

Bifurcator wrote:
...That's a good point. But really, only three in 20 years? ...

JohnJ wrote:
That may have been a bit of an exageration for effect. I've printed professionally (for reproduction) from time to time so I can certainly churn out a good quality print, but I don't have to like it.

Ah, you're like that. I used to be too. I kinda had to hear someone else rave about before I reconsidered it myself. But fairly soon into it I realized time was a nice revealer of truth. So I started marking the frames I liked and then waiting a month or two before I re-viewed them. If I still liked it then I'd print full size and do the same thing with them - picking favorites, waiting and then reevaluating the choices.

These days I kinda do a combination of the two. If someone says they like one of my shots I'll print, mount, and hang it even if I don't like it myself. I still do the time thing too but not with markings or tags, I just go from memory.

Aug 22, 2011 at 07:10 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

denoir wrote:
Are you seriously asking people to judge film vs digital based on two sets of completely different photos? I'm honestly speechless. So I'll just leave you with this punchy and emotional shot (it must be since it was shot on film)

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/film/velvia50066.jpg

You shot a brick wall with film?!?!?! Blasphemy!

Aug 22, 2011 at 07:17 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

I'm not asking you to do anything. The guy posts a shit ton of photos and you can look through his post history if you feel like it. I noticed what I saw then and think there is definitely something to it. If a person is unwilling or unable to post process their digital shots then they come off flat and boring, imo.

Aug 22, 2011 at 07:53 PM

telyt
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Zaitz wrote:
... If a person is unwilling or unable to post process their digital shots then they come off flat and boring, imo.

Which might be the problem you're seeing with his photos. Has nothing to do with the technology, but much to do with the user's skill and commitment to it.

Aug 22, 2011 at 09:02 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

telyt wrote:
Which might be the problem you're seeing with his photos. Has nothing to do with the technology, but much to do with the user's skill and commitment to it.
Isn't that a big point to it and for most people? The vast majority of people seem unwilling and/or unable to post process competently. Shot for shot with little to no work the digital SOOC jpegs lack character. Film has had their color and contrast profiles developed and almost perfected for decades. The closest thing digital seems to have is the X100 which apparently tries to mimic film.

Aug 22, 2011 at 09:09 PM

telyt
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Zaitz wrote:
Isn't that a big point to it and for most people? The vast majority of people seem unwilling and/or unable to post process competently. Shot for shot with little to no work the digital SOOC jpegs lack character. Film has had their color and contrast profiles developed and almost perfected for decades. The closest thing digital seems to have is the X100 which apparently tries to mimic film.

Who gives a sh!t about SOOC jpgs? That's like trusting Wal-mart to develop & print your film. Which most people did before switching to digital.

It doesn't matter if Joe Blow's film photos look better than his digital photos, or that his sister Rose's digital prints look better than her prints from her film camera. What matters to me is what works best for me, and if I may offer unsolicited advice, what should matter to you is what works best for you. Not what works better for me, or for Gregory (NikkorAIS), or for anyone else.

Aug 22, 2011 at 10:16 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

telyt wrote:
Who gives a sh!t about SOOC jpgs? That's like trusting Wal-mart to develop & print your film. Which most people did before switching to digital.

It doesn't matter if Joe Blow's film photos look better than his digital photos, or that his sister Rose's digital prints look better than her prints from her film camera. What matters to me is what works best for me, and if I may offer unsolicited advice, what should matter to you is what works best for you. Not what works better for me, or for Gregory (NikkorAIS), or for anyone else.

That's the truth. Who has said different? A lot of people shoot SOOC and think it is more than sufficient. I was not comparing between people but images from the same person that had a vastly different look, and I suspected it was because of the inherent qualities of the film.

This thread is titled film look so the discussion was about the qualities and identifiable look of film. If you are using a program like Alienskin Exposure or Silver Efex to mimic film grain you are going to get close enough to make it nearly impossible to tell in an online representation. They are pretty dang good at mimicking film grain.

I only shoot 35mm for grain. When I want it I develop for it and embrace it.

Obviously I couldn't care less what others think is best for me. I have chosen my tools and methods for several reasons. Clearly there are those that disagree.

Aug 22, 2011 at 10:26 PM

telyt
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Zaitz wrote:
That's the truth. Who has said different?

You. I'm curious why you pointed out Gregory's photos and claimed the ones from film were so much better because they were on film when we seem to agree that the individual's processing skills make a difference. There are too many uncontrolled variables to conclude that the film was the critical factor.

Zaitz wrote:
I was not comparing between people but images from the same person that had a vastly different look, and I suspected it was because of the inherent qualities of the film.

A rather short-sighted assumption IMHO.

Edited on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:54 PM · View previous versions

Aug 22, 2011 at 10:51 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

telyt wrote:
You. I'm curious why you pointed out Gregory's photos and claimed the ones from film were so much better when we seem to agree that the individual's processing skills make a difference.

A rather short-sighted assumption IMHO.
Did you not just say as much?

Aug 22, 2011 at 10:54 PM

telyt
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Zaitz wrote:
Did you not just say as much?

No. If we were to agree that someone's photos (let's not pick on Gregory) from a film camera look better that his photos from a digital camera then to determine if they look better because they were made with film we'd have to eliminate uncontrolled variables.

What printer? Which inks and paper? What software? What enlarger? Which digital camera? Which lens or lenses? How was it processed? How well aligned is the enlarger? How fresh is the chemistry? Is the thermometer accurate? Is the monitor calibrated? How much experience and training with each process?

My position is that "film or digital" is much too broad a question to point to any one person's web images and say "Aha! It's FILM that make these better!"

Aug 22, 2011 at 11:04 PM

Zaitz
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

I don't think it's picking on him. The film shots are pretty damn fantastic, imo.

Aug 22, 2011 at 11:10 PM

denoir
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

What you are missing is that in that post his film shots were his all time favorites over many years while the digital were just his recent ones. You should check out Gregory's current work in the Leica thread - there are many shots that are as good or better than those film shots (not in one single post but over time).

I also can't help but noticing but in your favorites set at flickr 10 out of 12 images are digital.

Aug 22, 2011 at 11:52 PM

contas
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Here is an article about film advantages over digital, the author wrote it in 2008: My choice is digital film-like sensor Foveon.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/film-resolution.htm

Edited on Aug 23, 2011 at 02:43 AM · View previous versions

Aug 23, 2011 at 02:36 AM

Zaitz
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

contas wrote:
Here is an article about film advantages over digital, the author wrote it in 2008:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/film-resolution.htm
That link is going to get people going. So will his other one:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/why-we-love-film.htm

Aug 23, 2011 at 02:40 AM

thrice
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

I avoid Ken, helps me avoid ulcers.

Aug 23, 2011 at 03:19 AM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

Yep, I like Ken because I think I get him... He's a complete sell-out to both his whim at the moment and to any commercial interests - and all in the most campy way possible. After one understands that it's easy to read him for the little factoids he delivers while avoiding taking seriously his opinions and general banter - entertainment at it's best - better than most TV!

I haven't read his opinions about film but I can imagine.

Man those ought to be some real doozies! Damn! Now I have to go read them just for the soap opera affect.

Aug 23, 2011 at 04:27 AM

Makten
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · What is "film look" and is it better than digital?

It certainly looks like film, because there are no real blacks. A common mistake among people scanning film.

Check the histogram.

Aug 23, 2011 at 06:24 AM

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