It's easy to second guess these things after the fact and it's always hard to word things perfectly for a client trying to anticipate all the possible ways they will react but looking at the dialogue that occurred, I think you might want to consider starting out a bit differently next time.
I think it is possible that when you started out with:
"whatever you decide, I will work with and will do my best to get awesome photography for you, however . . ."
she heard:
"If you can't give me the first look, all bets are off babe. No guarantees. It's not going to be my problem if you're not happy. Oh, and by the way, I'm a little freaked that I have to depend totally on low-/artificial-light shots."
Something a little less defensive and to the point might have been less fear-inducing, like:
"Received your timeline and just wanted to double-check some details. As scheduled, there will be no natural-light pics of you and the groom together. Are you OK with that? (probably wouldn't even mention that you can totally rock low/artificial light unless she asked. Sounds like you're nervously over-compensating if you state it pre-emptively) The 20 minutes you are giving us for formals/posed romantic shots will give us time for about X different shots with a pretty limited number of locales/backgrounds/setups. Are you OK with that?"
I suspect that there are still some brides that want the "no peek before the wedding" tradition. During your consults, it might be useful to ask why they prefer to not do the first look to determine if it is just timing/logistics or whether there is some "traditional" desires there, too.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
Your job is to get the best possible photos while keeping your client as happy as possible. You gave an option that would do both based on your experience. You did nothing wrong.
When she's running around like crazy trying to round up her family and munching on appetizers during the 5 minutes you have for B&G portraits, she'll begin to understand.
Right. Then you will also be sorry that you accepted this job in the first place because they did not give you the time you needed for the other pics. The five minutes they are willing to spend with you on their picture session is not enough.
cas5 wrote:
The problem is that she has an unrealistic fantasy stuck in her head about standing in the entry way to the ceremony arm-in-arm with her dad and seeing the groom catch his breath seeing her for the first time that momentus day and maybe he'll shed a tear or two because she's so beautiful and you're effing with her fantasy. Weather report for this wedding: Stormy skies ahead.
Why is this an unrealistic fantasy? This is very important to many people, and should not belittled because as the photographer, it makes things more challenging. Personally, that moment was EXTREMELY important to me. I had dreamed my whole life of seeing my almost-wife walk through the door and getting that first look of her as she came down the aisle, and when it happened, it was just as magical as I always dreamed it would be. We ended up having tornadoes on our wedding day and had almost no photos outside because of it. Had we done a first look, we could have had more. Do I wish looking back that we had done a first look? Hell no. I wanted that moment, and I got it...it was that important to me. We went out again a month or so later and did another session with just the two of us because circumstances required it.
Is it easier for a first look? Yes. Do I suggest it usually? Yes. Will I fight for it? No way.
It was not an unrealistic fantasy for me; it was a very easily attainable fantasy. It had trade offs, but I was fine with that. I feel sorry for the couples that are seemingly forced out of it by photographers that seem to be more concerned about producing the best product than they are about their couple's desires. Yes, we have a job to do, but when it comes down to it...we are a secondary concern for the day. The couple is the number 1 concern.
Eyeball wrote:
It's easy to second guess these things after the fact and it's always hard to word things perfectly for a client trying to anticipate all the possible ways they will react but looking at the dialogue that occurred, I think you might want to consider starting out a bit differently next time.
I think it is possible that when you started out with:
"whatever you decide, I will work with and will do my best to get awesome photography for you, however . . ."
she heard:
"If you can't give me the first look, all bets are off babe. No guarantees. It's not going to be my problem if you're not happy. Oh, and by the way, I'm a little freaked that I have to depend totally on low-/artificial-light shots."
Something a little less defensive and to the point might have been less fear-inducing, like:
"Received your timeline and just wanted to double-check some details. As scheduled, there will be no natural-light pics of you and the groom together. Are you OK with that? (probably wouldn't even mention that you can totally rock low/artificial light unless she asked. Sounds like you're nervously over-compensating if you state it pre-emptively) The 20 minutes you are giving us for formals/posed romantic shots will give us time for about X different shots with a pretty limited number of locales/backgrounds/setups. Are you OK with that?"
I suspect that there are still some brides that want the "no peak before the wedding" tradition. During your consults, it might be useful to ask why they prefer to not do the first look to determine if it is just timing/logistics or whether there is some "traditional" desires there, too. ...Show more →
very well said.
Yes, as photographers we want everyone to do a first look, but you can't convince everyone of it. We just had a wedding in April where they did do a first look, and because of how small the hotel was and there being no where to hide, guests were coming in to be seated for the ceremony and saw the bride and groom hanging out and talking in the back hallway. Nearly every single one came up to her and exclaimed "WHAT ARE DOING?!?!? YOU CAN'T SEE EACH OTHER BEFORE THE WEDDING!!!!!" Thankfully she just shrugged them off, but I felt awful for her. I couldn't believe these idiots not realizing how much that could upset a person MINUTES before they walk down the isle. The thing is, you have no idea how much pressure brides are getting from everyone in their family to do things a certain way, and now she may be feeling pressure from you to change things when everything has already been set.
I had a bride and groom this past summer, use up all their time taking pictures on large family groups and gave me 5 minutes for pictures of the two of them. I still had half of cocktail hour left, but they really wanted to get inside and party. I didn't pressure them for more time, and I kicked myself in the ass over it when I saw the pictures and how few I had of them. But when they saw the pictures they raved, and even wrote in a review of me how awesome it was that I didn't pressure them about their timing.
Yes, it's your job to educate your clients about their options, but not to make all of their decisions for them. I'm not saying you were wrong in this situation, I don't think you were too pushy about it, but as you have already said, it probably would have been better to nail down the timeline sooner.
You can't always get the biggest and cleanest houses to get ready in, you won't always get the biggest ballrooms, and you won't always get as much time as you want/need. You gotta use what you got and make it work.
I have yet to convince a bride to do a first look if they already made up their mind to not see each other until the ceremony. I always pitch it early on though, but I never push it once I know they've made up their mind. It seems to be pretty deeply rooted.
cas5 wrote:
The problem is that she has an unrealistic fantasy stuck in her head about standing in the entry way to the ceremony arm-in-arm with her dad and seeing the groom catch his breath seeing her for the first time that momentus day and maybe he'll shed a tear or two because she's so beautiful and you're effing with her fantasy. Weather report for this wedding: Stormy skies ahead.
And it is a problem for photographers to think they always know what is best for a husband and wife to be. Photography at a wedding is a luxury, and as so many people in the south are now aware of, if/when the pictures get lost/destroyed, all that is left from a wedding is memories.
I guess my wedding was a giant fantasy then. Seeing my wife walk down the aisle and her seeing me was something neither one of us would give up. And she did shed a few tears. She was and still is stunning, and I am her fantasy. We wouldn't have traded that moment for anything. And we are still happily married. Contrary to what you think, moments like this in a wedding are more important to some people than having an awesome B&G set of photos.
Some want that moment, others don't. There is nothing wrong with doing it either way. And as a photographers, we may have been to lots of weddings as photographers or guests, but we've probably only been in 1, perhaps 2; we really don't have any more experience as being a B&G then soon to be newlyweds do.
huddy wrote:
I guess my wedding was a giant fantasy then. Seeing my wife walk down the aisle and her seeing me was something neither one of us would give up. And she did shed a few tears. She was and still is stunning, and I am her fantasy. We wouldn't have traded that moment for anything. And we are still happily married. Contrary to what you think, moments like this in a wedding are more important to some people than having an awesome B&G set of photos
@Joel - That one moment is a hugely important part of the day. I wasn't belittling the moment, I was poking a little fun at Ale for pushing on it two days before the wedding and not being prepared for some push back. I think in the last 20 weddings I've seen a fairytale moment twice and I usually get a little choked up when it does happen. In those same 20 weddings we have done two first looks.
Edit - I re-read what I wrote and it really did come across like I was belittling the moment. Certainly not my intention.
why is the "first look" important to a wedding photographer and his coverage? I did my apprenticing with Faith West inc and she always did first looks also.. I chose not to do them.
I've done 3 of them, only one of which was logistically kind of required, none were my idea. The couples where I've suggested it because they didn't want to take time away from the party all decided against it.
I do believe that watching your bride walk down the aisle is a special moment and that's why I don't just suggest it for the sake of epic portraiture.
The more I think about it the more I realize that Sergio nailed it... it was too close to the day... 2 days away... at this point she's just anticipating things certainly not looking for ANYONE to attempt to mess with her schedule.
At the same time I do maintain that it was important for me to make the suggestion, so I guess circumstances made it so that I had a a no-win scenario. I believe I acted in her best interest so I'm good with that.
And yes with 20 minutes allocated for family portraits AND romantic portraits this is going to be quite the challenge. Hopefully my wife's illness and the subsequent result of me hiring an epic FMer to help out will magically make those 20 minutes as good as 30. Pressure goes straight on Tony
@cas5 Sorry if I shot you down their. I mean no harm!
Alessandro, I'm sure it will you go well. You guys should be able to pull off some great shots. Unless they just want a ridiculous number of B&G shots, you guys will be fine.
My take is like other have said, express your concerns with a schedule and let the client know how best you think the day could be handled. If they listen to you and trust your expertise, win win, if not, you have done your part and what comes the day of is what comes. It will be unfortunate for everyone if something should go awry and the ten minutes set aside for portraits gets swallowed by something else and you have no time. I have done the bride & groom portraits in a five minute window before, it sucked, for the couple and myself.
lisy78 wrote:
"...you've stated multiple times that you'd rather spend time enjoying that party rather than being pulled out for photos..."
Ale, you really should have thought that through before you said it. Personally, I wouldn't have even mentioned any of this. I would have dealt with it when I got there. There's no way I would have said something like this after the contract's signed... especially with the wedding two days away. That just makes no sense.
I did explain that during our contract signign meeting. I do bring that up. At the time they were undecided. Now apparently she's made up her mind and that is that.
Frankly if it weren't for the fact that she had gone to great lengths to compliment me for work where the couple had invested 1+ hours for portraits I wouldn't even have said anything.
I'm sure everything will be fine. I will do my best to get a couple of epic shots and that will be that.
Worst case scenario, if we were to just NOT get enough good stuff to satisfy ME I will send them a gift card for a "Just Married" session and a print on me. And yeah OBVIOUSLY I would frame it as "you guys were so awesome during the e-session and we had so little time that if you were interested I'd bla bla bla..." heck I even have a MUA who has asked me if I could hook her up with a couple of free gigs so she can practice... there I can even tell the bride ... session WITH makeup.
That's a good way to basically put the ball in her court... if she's not happy with the variety and she doesn't take me up on the offer... I mean I am NOT Superman lady
And yes... for those following along... my clients ONLY GET THE DVD for the images from the wedding day. So you can draw your own conclusions as to whether I would be IN FACT truly giving ANYTHING away.
lisy78 wrote:
Maybe I should have pressed her about getting a timeline together months ago. I asked a few times, she said she hadn't gotten to it and I let it slide.
Now it's 2 days from the wedding and I just got it today.
I do believe that was my point about making what I need known at the forefront so that as she gets into the wedding plans she knows what time allotment you need carved out. You don't want them to make the schedule and then try to fit yourself in.
I wouldn't want my couples to regard their photography sessions as something we merely cram in between the other events planned for the day, but rather, I have them think in terms of our photography sessions being one of the main events of their day.
huddy wrote:
I guess my wedding was a giant fantasy then. Seeing my wife walk down the aisle and her seeing me was something neither one of us would give up. And she did shed a few tears. She was and still is stunning, and I am her fantasy. We wouldn't have traded that moment for anything. And we are still happily married.
I've found that having the first look actually does not take anything away from seeing each other at the ceremony but in fact the time spent together serves to add to and build up to it, making the ceremony time even more emotional. Not only that, but because the couple has that "first look" event as part of their day, they now made, have and cherish that many more memories.
Anyhow, where the first look isn't done, if the couple schedules sufficient time after the ceremony, then the photo sessions shouldn't be any more of an issue than if they were done prior. The trick is getting the couple to schedule the time. All my couples do, one way or the other, and I think it's because they're paying a good sum, want to have the best results, and totally trust that their interests are my priority.
And since I'm being paid to be at the wedding to get the best photographic results, then yes, I have to advocate what I deem is best for their photography.
I've never been able to convince a B&G to do a first look, either. I've been told that "It's bad luck" for the groom to see the bride in her wedding dress until the actual ceremony has started... the first look "should" be when she's walking up the aisle, and is being "given" by the father.
I noticed that during the Royal Wedding, he didn't get to see her until at the point the father is giving her away also.
Contrary to what you think, moments like this in a wedding are more important to some people than having an awesome B&G set of photos.