I agree, that was a poorly derived observation. Any lens would have the same result. To test for a flat field you need a flat grid.Here's an example test for flat field with a macro. For a wide angle, a large area of grass or concrete works well:

Hi Conner999,

I received the Leica 28mm. Fabulous lens as advertised. However, the mirror hangs as the lists at 16-9 and Pebble Place indicate. I can fire f2.8 & f4 no problem, but from f5.6 on down, it hangs.

Is there someone who does mirror shaves? I've seen the question raised but I don't recall seeing an answer.

Aaargh. Hang on a minute -- the mirror hangs as you stop down? That makes NO sense. In no way should changing aperture cause the mirror to hang. I could see if as you focus towards infinity and the rear element's modest rearward extension (as happens with the 28) caused the mirror to hand on your 5D.

Check your adapter. IF you're you're using a confirmation adapter that isn't TIGHT on the lens and fitting snugly and locked into the body, it could shift just enough to shift the contacts and give the camera a BF.

If the lock up happens as you stop down vs. focus towards infinity - it is NOT the mirror. It's something with the adapter.

Something is causing the distance between the rear-element shroud and the tip of the mirror to change ever so slightly as you go thru the movement of shifting the aperture ring, causing a lock-up on your 5D - that should not happen. Period.
Even if the lens+adapter combo rotates a tad because it hasn't been adjusted snug (see pebble place for instructions), that distance to the mirror should not change - unless the adapter is not machined flat (or is otherwise bug**red).

If it's a chipped adapter, it's almost likely the electrical connection - potentially aggravated by an an adapter that is also not flat (lens shifts, contact between electrical pins on body and contacts on lens increases just enough to cause an error)

Some tests:

Test 1: Obvious one. Try with another BRAND adapter - a non-chipped one. make sure it is a TIGHT fit on the lens and when mounted it fits snugly and locks. Kindai/CameraQuest are the gold standard in non-chipped units.

Test 2: If a confirmation unit, clean contacts of adapter and retry - again, same comments on tight secure fit.

Test 3: Get it to happen (no harm) with current adapter then STOP. Power off the camera, remove the lens (leaving aperture where it was), power on w/o a lens and if the mirror doesn't return at power-up, just touch the shutter button to get it to return.
Now power off, remount the lens making sure it fits snugly and locks and that the adapter is a TIGHT fit on lens (again aperture at F5.6 or where ever it was when it locked), power on the camera and trip the shutter. Good chance will be fine.

Your 5D may be a marginal unit re: mirror position/size, but if the problem occurs when you say it does, it ain't the camera or the lens. Pham Min Son IIRC does shave mirrors, but don't even consider it until you rule out your adapter.

Sadly too many machine shops spitting out adapters via ebay these days. It pays to pony-up if you can with one GOOD adapter dedicated to each lens and adjusted to be a TIGHT fit on same.

IF you made a error in your post and it hangs as you focus outward, it could be addressed via a new adapter. Most adapter makers machine their units a tad on the thin side to 'guarantee' infinity focus.
This can cause issues with the 5D. If such is the case, you can shim the adapter with scotch or metallic duct tape (between the two halves of the adapter) or use a different adapter.

Bear in mind, that the difference between an hang and a no-hang (actually failing to return to ready) can be as little as 0.001"- so even a strip of tape can make a big difference. A little micrometer is a very handy tool if you use alternate lenses.

@ rfkiii:

I don't shoot with a 5D, however, I've had 2 examples of the Leica 28mm Elmarit, latest optical version. One had a plastic shroud around the rear element and one didn't. Before you go and grind the 5D mirror, check your lens out for this shroud, which could possibly be removed and give the clearance you need.

And, yes, you should be proud of that acquisition, I know I am happy to have mine. The test for infinity focus should be of far off objects, like telephone poles at f/2.8. Good luck.

Conner999, you are correct. This happens at Infinity. I don't use f2.8 or f4 at Infinity so my subject matter was different for those apertures. I generally do not shoot wide open either. I generally do not shoot anything closer than Infinity. Hopefully this explains why I am having trouble articulating my observations of the this lens and the Zeiss for certain situations.

The L28 would represent a departure from the the type of lens I normally seek out. All of my lenses must pass my Infinity inspection which the Zeiss 28 ZF did not. Turns out the Zeiss 28 ZF is optimized for other shooting situations and it's my bad for not researching it further although I suppose, this thread could be considered as part of my research.

Your description of the L28 was compelling and has proven absolutely accurate (to within sniffing distance of Infinity which obviously I have not had a chance to verify yet).

Also, I was a little disoriented as I have never had a mirror clearance problem with my 5D including the C/Y 28/2.8 which seems to hang on so many others. I was posting in haste and panic mode because I only have a very very short time left to evaluate the lens.

I got the lens a week ago but Camera West sent an incorrect adapter that wouldn't even screw down onto the lens. So, I had to pivot and order the happypagehk Leica adapter and paid for Express delivery. This adapter fits tightly and seems professional in every way. Then in the meantime, the Camera West owner comes up with a used Novaflex that would fit the lens and says he would be glad to send it out. He was out yesterday so I need to call him today. Would the Novaflex be a good brand to try? If I ask him to send it and with shipping time in mind, I am afraid I may wear out my welcome as to a return policy.

If I got got a non-chipped adapter and since I shoot mostly at Infinity, wouldn't all I really need to do is set lens to Infinity, stop down to taste, and fire away? Wouldn't have to worry about AF confirm in those situations? Am I missing something here?

I am leaning toward a mirror shave since this would be a fix for multiple lenses am I correct? I am no longer concerned about the selling condition of my 5D. It has some scrapes on it, you know from using it in the field, which would lower the resale to a point where keeping it would be the better financial decision since it still operates as it did the day it came out of the box.

Jim,

The shroud on mine appears to be metal. Dang.

I'd rather grind on the 5D than on the lens although the lens looks like it would be easier to do. I want to amend something I said above about Infinity. I was able to get a glimpse of it. The mirror hangs when I attempt to lock it up (MLU). I have a couple of shots where the shutter fires with the mirror hung half way into the frame. That top half of the image not blocked by the mirror is unbelievably detailed. And the exposure seemed on the button (no EC needed) unlike the Zeiss' which all seem to confound the 5D.

Ok - these issues are easier to address. The mirror is being an SOB at the top of it's arc during it's swing.
As an aside: it also needn't be hanging (when hanging on shutter trip vs. MLU). When very close to clearing, they usually are actually plowing thru their complete swing, but are slowed down just enough from the grazing contact so as not to be able to get clear of the sensor's field of view when the shutter trips.

1. Novoflex. Many people argue they are worth it in that they use the same Leica-side hardware as does Leica - same parts supplier. That said, I know of at least one such adapter that literally came apart at the seams and was sent back to Germany in a Ziploc. Not kosher for an adapter, new, that costs in the $300 snack bracket. My vote - pass on it.

2. Rudolph (happypagehk) makes great product. Just adjust the adapter so it fits TIGHTLY.

3. Chipped or non-chipped makes no difference on infinity focus - it's the thickness of the adapter that can be an issue with the #$%^ finicky 5D. An adaptyer like HK's encoded for that specific lens (which he does free) will make life easier when looking for pics, etc.

4. Setting at infinity and stopping way down may help if you are VERY close to achieving infinity focus. Have never tried it.

5. The easiest & fastest fix for the mirror hang so you can test the lens properly:

- Get some metal duct (not Duck) tape (the real aluminium stuff used for metal ducts ) it's apparently 0.001" thick.
- Unscrew the Leica side of the adapter from it's Canon side. Use the right sized screwdriver and take it easy - the screw heads are soft and you don't want to cam-out with the screwdriver and mangle them (I @#$ hate Philips screws for that reason).
- Stick one layer (no overlap) of thin strips (say 4) of the tape on the inside of the Leica side of the adapter. Make sure you get all 4 quadrants of the compass (N, S, E, W) if you will.
- Trim off any excess on the inside or outside of the Leica 'ring' with a single-sided razor, X-acto, etc.
- Re-screw the two halves together. Don't over tighten - just snug (you may need to screw/unscrew more than once). Sscrew them in liek lug nuts on a wheel - 9 oclock, then 3, then 12, then 6, etc.

You've now move the lens 0.001" further away from the mirror.

Mount lens and try. Given you are just hanging, 0.001" (- the miniscule compression from the two mount halves) may just do the trick.
If not quite, rinse & repeat above with a 2nd layer. Once you get it working, remove the screws, put a drop of Loctite on each and snug back down (ignore this step if you intend to shave mirror so you can remove tape after mirror shave, THEN use Loctite).

Scotch tape will also work, but Duct tape is far stickier. Can also use thin paper, etc, but a self-adhesive and very very thin material of consistent thickness is easier.

Now, the above will make infinity MORE difficult, but at least you could test lens.

The best long-term bet, as you suggest, is to tweak the mirror. This will allow you to mount damn near anything -- and it also doesn't make much material removal either. Modifying the lens is a bit riskier and given that you have 'one of those' 5Ds will be of little value with other lenses. Besides the law of averages would imply that the more lenses you modify, the greater the chance of a Dremel head or file inadvertently passing across a rear element..;<

Another option is to have a local camera repair dude order you a spare mirror, modify that mirror (no risk of junk in camera) thyself with a file or Dremel, then have the same shop swap the two (they are just glued on). If you re-sell, you can give buyer option of modified or non-modified.

Once you get to look at the entire frame ;>, you'll love with that lens can deliver - it's just too bad your camera is being such a PITA.

Another option is to have a local camera repair dude order you a spare mirror, modify that mirror (no risk of junk in camera) thyself with a file or Dremel, then have the same shop swap the two (they are just glued on). If you re-sell, you can give buyer option of modified or non-modified.

If you get the mirror out of the camera, I can cut it, extremely accurately, at no cost. See these old archived discussions. Look at my comments page one, and especially bottom of page 2:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/297063/1

Hi Conner999,

Are you an EMT in your regular life?

Thanks for your help. I have contacted a local shop who does repairs locally. He had never heard of shaving the mirror but is up for anything. He mentioned that if he were to do so, he would remove the mirror first. He had me send some links to illustrations of mirror shave I told him could be found on the Internet. He'll get back to me shortly.

I believe Rudolf guarantees Infinity focus so I am afraid if I open up that adapter, I may void the warranty. If I get the Novaflex adpater out here just to test the lens and it allows the mirror to clear, at least I can make some better judgments. If the Novaflex is thicker and I lose Infinity focus, I can send back. It is clear that the mirror MUST be shaved.

Don,

If the local shop flinches at doing the actual shaving, I'll have them remove the mirror and will overnight to you. I hate to place any kind of condition on your kind offer, but I have a trip to Moab coming up in less than 3 weeks whereby I'd love to have this worked out. If that won't be feasable for you, we can do it after the trip. I will do this regardless of whether I keep this particular lens.

Me, an EMT ? An accident victim's worst nightmare...;>

I don't have a 5D in front of me anymore (and mine never had clearance issues - just #$% focus ones), but take a look and see if the bottom of the mirror clears the plastic frame holding it. The mirror itself is held in place by some silicone and 4 rubber feet. How do we know - some people had the silicone fail and the mirror fall out during the 5Ds early intro.

If it doesn't clear, you'll need to file the bottom of the plastic holder itself as well (see link). http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?pid=72123. The other option could be to remove mirror, cut it and reposition it flush with the bottom of it's frame.

The most crucial aspect of the whole process is keeping crap out of the camera. Some sort of mask out of paper, saran wrap or masking tape and the use of a small section of tubing taped to a vacuum hose for cleaning during process should help.

I'd also use a hand file - a Dremel will spew crap everywhere. There is an Asian site (Japan I think) that shows how to do it in detail. Great pictorial how-to.

If you've got a willing camera shop, head over there with some data, a case of beer (for after, maybe 1 before to steady the nerves) and go for it.

There is no assurance Novoflex will clear enough for you to test lens. It would have to be thicker than HPHK unit. If they are willing to measure it's thickness exactly and you can compare that to your HPHK unit (buy a cheap micrometer) .. Otherwise, you're wasting money.

HPHK assures infinity because he, like others, make the adapters a tad thin - which only aggravates issues with iffy 5Ds. Taking a unit apart is simple and leaves no trace unless you mangle the screw heads. You could buy 3-4 of his units for the cost of one new Novoflex...

IF you take one apart, I can't stress again how soft those screw heads are. Use the right sized screw driver, press it into the socket FIRMLY and turn slowly while maintaining FIRM pressure. They come right out. If you mangle the head - it will be on the initial turn try and will just mean you can't add a shim (easily). Adapter is still fine for use.

Shaving the mirror is a PITA, but lenses like the L 28 Mod II, the 19/2.8 Mod II and others would make it worthwhile until such time as/if you move to a 1 series (big assumption here).

Rob:

I think CameraWest was going to give him the Novoflex adapter. They are a quality adapted and I would take it if offered it.

Hey, if its for free (or a free replacement for the one they sent that didn't work) - take it. However, unless it's thicker than your HPHK unit, it won't help re: your testing timeline.

The Novoflex units are reputed to be nice kit, but they aren't without issues and for the cost involved vs. competing products ($255 B&H vs. $65) they should be bulletproof. If it's any consolation, Zoerk units are even spendier.

Now, if you intend to use one adapter for all your Leica lenses vs. an adapter for each lens (in effect converting your EOS to Leica mount for the bulk of the time) and are happy with a non-chipped adapter re: exif data logging, then they are actually a wise choice given their use of Leica OEM self-adjusting spring-based (Leica-side) mount hardware.

How many of us who have shaved our mirrors found it a PITA?

I am very curious, because I did not.

Okay, the camera shop said to bring 'er in. I am sure they will ask how much do I want to shave off. I could take them the lens and tell them to shave until the mirror clears this particular lens. Or, I could have them shave off the max. What is the max by the way?

No idea what safe max is. It really is a grind, clean-up, try and maybe re-grind since every 5D varies. Better just enough than too much obviously. From what I've seen, no more than a couple MMs seems enough to do the trick.

Folks like Cogitech, etc could give you a better idea, but it will vary.

Hell, if it all works out with the shop, you can always go back for a touch-up if you err on side of caution but get a really cantankerous lens in future.

Keep us posted.

16-9 says 2mm needs to be shaved. Email Don and ask him, he's done it several times.

2mm is a good target.

Do these guys know what they are doing? Have they done it before? Do they have any references?

Do these guys know what they are doing?

They do with regard to normal camera repairs. A lot of this mirror shaving is being done DIY someone on the caliber of Don Clary notwithstanding. If I were to rank them vs myself in regards to getting the job done right, I'd put them ahead of me. Way ahead of me. Nonetheless, I intend to talk to them and try to guage their confidence in this operation. I will mention to them Don's offer. They may say they'll remove the mirror and be relieved.

Don has not gotten back with me on a time frame that is convenient for him. (Maybe I should email him.) I would still need for these local guys to pull the mirror.

Have they done it before?

They had never heard of mirror shaving before talking with me a couple of days ago. I emailed them a couple of links from 16-9.net and Photo net that contained How To explanations and pictorials.

Do they have any references?

A respected camera retailer here in town recommended them.

Just sit on their shoulder and pull the plug if it looks like they're not taking due care. You can tell them that if they do a good, clean job, there is probably a nice chunk of business from US 5D (and probably 5D MkII) owners they could look fwd to.

Good luck.

Don asked me how much I wanted shaved off. I told him the concensus here in this thread was 2 mm. So that I am clear, is 2mm the amount you guys think I need for the L28 or was this a maximum measurement? If I could go 3 or 4 mm and not impact the image as seen through the viewfinder, I'm thinking why not go for it? If 2mm is more than enough for any of the Leicas (for instance the Leica 19mm), then I'd be more than happy to just leave it at that.

Conner, I think I will send to Don. Hopefully, this doesn't insult the repair shop dude.

I've also asked a couple of local camera repair shops also, but nobody even heard of shaving mirror of camera. They looked at me as if I'm a barbarian.
I didn't want to take a chance, so, i sent my camera to Pham Minh Son.

It's in good hand.

3-4mm would be pushing it, IMO. Take too much off and you might fly right past the damper foam and crash into your focusing screen

I am not an authority on this matter, even though I did the surgery myself, but I'd say stick with 2mm. Most lenses likely only need 1mm (imagine adding another 1mm to your adapter thickness), so 2mm would be aiming for the safe side already.

All this mirror talk has me seriously considering writing a mirror shave howto similar to my Rokkor 58/1.2 page.

Or maybe I aught to get into the business and start offering the service to Canucks...

(what's the going rate for a 5D mirror shave?)

16-9 says 2mm needs to be shaved. Email Don and ask him, he's done it several times.

Nope, never done it. I've offered, maybe Rick will be my first customer.

Don has not gotten back with me on a time frame that is convenient for him.

I've since replied, one day or less. I serously don't think it will take me 5 minutes. And the cut will be cleaner than the original from Canon. No chips, no grit going everywhere.

I'd say stick with 2mm ...(what's the going rate for a 5D mirror shave?)

I suggested taping the bottom edge of the uncut mirror with black tape, to see how much cut intrudes into the image in the viewfinder. Paul, you'd never compete with my rates: 0 $. If Rick wasn't in a hurry to shoot in Moab, I could trim 1/2 mm or less at a time, many times.

Stick with 2mm max. Bear in mind - you will likely have to also shave/grind the bottom of the plastic frame the mirror sits on.
If the local shop could remove the mirror & it's frame as one piece, DC sounds like he could do a sweet job on both. The shop would likely be happier to get the safer business or removing/reinstalling the mirror assembly.

I don't know if the L19/2.8 Ver2 will clear even a shaved 5D - it's rear element MAY (I stress MAY) need to be shaved a tad as well.
On a 1 series the lens shroud needs a hefty shave and while 2mm off a 'typical' 5D may be enough on it's own, the lens still may need a little haircut. I guess as with most things with the 5D, it comes down to the individual camera.

As much as I loved the 19 I borrowed, an alternate route I am thinking of going is the Nikon 14-24/2.8. Handled one the other day on a D300 (minor miracle they had one in Halifax...). It's a fat sucker at the far end, but it's not as long and hefty as I first thought. The price would be about the same, no shaving necessary just an adapter - bought or a DIY job via an old Nikon-EoS unit.

This is of course assuming I don't sink what's left of my budget into more Hasselblad glass...

Cogi - may be some beer money in it for you - faster shipping, no customs hassles, etc. Since it's safe to assume the 5DII will be no better tolerance-wise, so should be a multi-year fund.