Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel
/forum/topic/600984/4166

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kwbarnes
Registered: Jun 26, 2005
Total Posts: 286
Country: United States

Steve, there are many 4 door cars available for less than 35,000 dollars. When Tesla produces one that sells for half of that, they might have something.

The electric verses gasoline powered auto situation today, is similar to the automobile verses horse situation around the year 1900. Cars were expensive, there were no roads, you bought fuel at the drug store in bottles, and they were unreliable.

We all know who finally won that contest, the jury is still out on electric verses gas. May we both live long enough to find out the answer.



nrferguson
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Total Posts: 2453
Country: United Kingdom

kwbarnes wrote:
Steve, there are many 4 door cars available for less than 35,000 dollars. When Tesla produces on that sells for half of that, they might have something.

The electric verses gasoline powered auto situation today, is similar to the automobile verses horse situation around the year 1900. Cars were expensive, there were no roads, you bought fuel at the drug store in bottles, and they were unreliable.

We all know who finally won that contest, the jury is still out on electric verses gas. May we both live long enough to find out the answer.


That's interesting, I hadn't realised that gasoline (petrol) was sold in bottles originally. Even in the 1950s I remember my dad's car had to be serviced every 1,000 miles and "de-coked" every 10,000 Nowadays I fill it up with gas twice every 1,000 miles (approx.) and get it serviced every 10,000+ (and I'm not sure it needs that except for the warranty).
However, a work colleague had an EV (he probably still has but I retired/was made redundant in April) and drove 50 miles to work each day. The NHS arranged for him to run a cable through a window from a disabled parking bay to re charge - free of charge - there must be a pun there somewhere! Great for him but not so good if the other 150 cars in the car-park were EVs.
Niall



nrferguson
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Total Posts: 2453
Country: United Kingdom

BTW - had my LRPS (Licentiate of the Royal Photographic Society) yesterday and got it (10 images showing a variety of techniques. Officially I have been "recommended" for the award and it needs to be ratified by the committee, which takes about two weeks, but that's just a formality. Next comes my Associate - 15 themed prints with an accompanying statement - time to start thinking what I might do.
Niall



kwbarnes
Registered: Jun 26, 2005
Total Posts: 286
Country: United States

nrferguson wrote: That's interesting, I hadn't realised that gasoline (petrol) was sold in bottles originally. (deleted)Niall

I have seen photographs showing it being sold in bottles, I believe it was also available in cans. Remember that in the year 1900 cars were a rarity, you probably could count all of the cars in the United States, and not reach triple digits. People traveled on foot, or by horse, train or ship. There were no real roads, and gas stations didn't exist.

Gasoline, (and Kerosene) was used for lighting, heating, cooking, running stationary engines, etc.

Ken



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19270
Country: United States

Congratulations Niall!



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 4084
Country: United States

nrferguson wrote:
BTW - had my LRPS (Licentiate of the Royal Photographic Society) yesterday ...


There will always be an England...

Congratulations, Niall!



msalvetti
Registered: Dec 20, 2003
Total Posts: 3167
Country: United States

kwbarnes wrote:
nrferguson wrote: That's interesting, I hadn't realised that gasoline (petrol) was sold in bottles originally. (deleted)Niall

I have seen photographs showing it being sold in bottles, I believe it was also available in cans. Remember that in the year 1900 cars were a rarity, you probably could count all of the cars in the United States, and not reach triple digits. People traveled on foot, or by horse, train or ship. There were no real roads, and gas stations didn't exist.

Gasoline, (and Kerosene) was used for lighting, heating, cooking, running stationary engines, etc.

Ken


There is an irony in all this. In the late 1800's and the early 1900's, the majority of what few cars were available were actually electric. There is a collection of early electric cars from the Larz Anderson estate at the Museum of Transportation here in Brookline, MA. I'll get some photos when I'm there later this month for an auto show.

Early petroleum refining was designed to mostly produce kerosene for lighting and cooking. Gasoline was viewed as a by-product that had no market - it was too dangerous to use in lamps and stoves. Most of it was discarded (i.e. discharged to the nearby river.....). I don't have a handy reference, but it's in the book The Prize by Daniel Yergin.

It was improvements to the internal combustion engine that finally replaced batteries and increased demand for gasoline, along with subsequent refining improvements to make more of it.

Mark



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 4084
Country: United States

Zane Adams wrote:
Wrei wrote:
Zane, that is probably because they can't sell Tesla's in Texas...or has that changed?


I see Tesla Model S cars almost everyday...they are here...but

Musk could sell cars in Texas right now if he wanted to...just like every other car manufacturer....through a dealership.

Tesla wants to sell factory direct and for some reason our state doesn't like that idea....Just one of several things that our great freedom loving state does that is not so freedom loving.

Drives me nuts....but that is the libertarian in me.



---------------------------------------------

Wrei wrote:
I just bought some go-karts. I priced them in local stores and each one added a title fee. I bought them on-line from a Dallas area on-line only dealer and they did not require the title fee. I even had to pay a title fee for my farm utility vehicle I imagine they want that 6% tax from the sale of those $75K autos.


---------------------------------------------

msalvetti wrote:
I think it is an ancient law put in place when car dealers had a lot more pull. We have the same laws in MA. But I believe just this week a court in NY found their similar law unconstitutional.

Here MA gets their automotive sales tax upon registration. I could by a car in NH and pay no tax, but MA would get me when I walk into the DMV.

Mark


Tesla sells plenty of cars to Texans (it's one of their largest markets), despite the dealer association's lobbying efforts in the state legislature to make it difficult. And Texas gets the sales tax on the purchase when the car is registered.

It's ironic that in a state that prides itself on rugged individualism the dealers feel the need to go hide behind the skirts of the legislature to protect them from this existential threat. The dealership system was created a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away: the internet did not exist and car manufacturers needed the dealer networks to buy and distribute their products. State legislatures recognized that dealers could face unfair competition if a manufacturer were to set up a store down the street from one of its own dealers, so they created dealer laws to protect the dealers from the manufacturers they represented.

Roll the clock forward 100 years: tiny Tesla decides it can't succeed if it goes the dealership route, so it elects to sell direct to customers over the Internet. It's de modern times, mon. Tesla argues that since it has no dealers, the laws protecting dealers from the manufacturers they represent don't apply. Customers love the experience of purchasing a car online (despite exceptions there are few experiences in modern life that create more fear and loathing than buying a car from a dealer: every consumer poll confirms it); dealers see the handwriting on the wall and panic, and instead of reacting to competition by improving their 'product', dealer lobbies set out to get their legislatures to ban Tesla from selling cars in their states. The legislatures can't prevent people from _buying_ cars over the Internet and registering them in the state, but dealers sure as hell don't want to let Tesla set a precedent that weakens the public's unthinking acceptance of the existing dealership arrangements.

Somebody mentioned cheap cars. Sure, there are a lot of perfectly good automobiles sold under $35K, but there are also a lot of perfectly mainstream automobiles sold in that $35K range: it represents a huge market expansion for Tesla, one more step down the path to general acceptance of EVs. Tesla, BTW, now owns the luxury sedan market in the U.S., outselling all of their direct competitors in that price range.



Wrei
Registered: Aug 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2939
Country: United States

msalvetti wrote:
kwbarnes wrote:
nrferguson wrote: That's interesting, I hadn't realised that gasoline (petrol) was sold in bottles originally. (deleted)Niall

I have seen photographs showing it being sold in bottles, I believe it was also available in cans. Remember that in the year 1900 cars were a rarity, you probably could count all of the cars in the United States, and not reach triple digits. People traveled on foot, or by horse, train or ship. There were no real roads, and gas stations didn't exist.

Gasoline, (and Kerosene) was used for lighting, heating, cooking, running stationary engines, etc.

Ken


There is an irony in all this. In the late 1800's and the early 1900's, the majority of what few cars were available were actually electric. There is a collection of early electric cars from the Larz Anderson estate at the Museum of Transportation here in Brookline, MA. I'll get some photos when I'm there later this month for an auto show.

Early petroleum refining was designed to mostly produce kerosene for lighting and cooking. Gasoline was viewed as a by-product that had no market - it was too dangerous to use in lamps and stoves. Most of it was discarded (i.e. discharged to the nearby river.....). I don't have a handy reference, but it's in the book The Prize by Daniel Yergin.

It was improvements to the internal combustion engine that finally replaced batteries and increased demand for gasoline, along with subsequent refining improvements to make more of it.

Mark


I thought "steam" was the primary power source for pre 1913 vehicles.



msalvetti
Registered: Dec 20, 2003
Total Posts: 3167
Country: United States

I didn't think there were that many, so I just looked it up. Turns out in 1902, 485 out of 902 new car registrations in the US were steam. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car).

But the same reference says that from 1899-1905, the Stanley Steamer outsold all gasoline powered cars, but was second to electric cars made by Columbia.

So good call, I didn't realize there were that many steamers. Still, electrics had a big piece of the market.

Mark



NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 9316
Country: United States

And I had to pay Ohio tax/fee for opening the grave... on federal land (National Cemetery is on VA Property). Not much choice in whether or not to pay it either.

msalvetti wrote:
I think it is an ancient law put in place when car dealers had a lot more pull. We have the same laws in MA. But I believe just this week a court in NY found their similar law unconstitutional.

Here MA gets their automotive sales tax upon registration. I could by a car in NH and pay no tax, but MA would get me when I walk into the DMV.

Mark




JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19270
Country: United States

Speaking of taxes, anyone else find it curious that The New York Times is all over Rubio for buying a "Luxury Speedboat" at a tab of 80K, but there hasn't been a peep in the press about Kerry's 7.2 million dollar boat , built in New Zealand, and registered in Rhode Island to save a half million in annual Mass. taxes. Naaaah, there's no bias in the press



msalvetti
Registered: Dec 20, 2003
Total Posts: 3167
Country: United States

That's the kind of coverage I filter out. When I saw the title of that article, I didn't even bother to read it.

Everybody has an agenda, I don't know where to go to find truly balanced news reporting. My definition of balanced is likely different from the next guy as well.

Maybe BBC News, but that's limited coverage.

BTW, Kerry caught flack for keeping the yacht in RI even here in MA, and he reportedly relented and paid the tax.

On a smaller scale, you should see all the NH license plates on cars that obviously spend most of their lives here in MA. Every now and then the DMV goes after people using NH summer cottages to register their cars up there. Not just tax savings, but insurance is a lot cheaper too.

Mark



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19270
Country: United States

I hear you Mark, I guess Nicholson was right, we can't handle the truth, in fact, how would you even recognize it anymore?



FlyingPhotog
Registered: May 09, 2008
Total Posts: 4775
Country: United States

Aircraft registrations follow a similar path in the Northeast (from what I've heard)



FlyingPhotog
Registered: May 09, 2008
Total Posts: 4775
Country: United States

In other tax-related news...

Apparently, because they've been preaching about minimizing water use, Kalifornia has seen a marked reduction in revenues related to water. Therefore, people's rates are going up...

You can't make this stuff up...



Wrei
Registered: Aug 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2939
Country: United States

It appears the go karts are a hit. After two training laps the grandkids got the hang of it pretty well!







She really should drive with her eyes open!







Daughter had a blast!














JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19270
Country: United States

What fun Ray! And, you have all kinds of opportunities to practice your slow shutter panning techniques!! Let's see some dusk shots with the lights on out on your open range.



Wrei
Registered: Aug 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2939
Country: United States

We are going to have one to all five of the grands here off and on until July 5 beginning a week from now. Look forward to the practice!



Rodolfo Paiz
Registered: Jan 07, 2007
Total Posts: 9906
Country: United States

Hey, I want one of those go-karts too! They look seriously fun.

My apologies for a prolonged disappearance -- and I'm not really going to be fully "back" yet, probably -- but I'm sure glad to be at least seeing these pages once again. I've missed y'all. More commentary in a little while...



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