Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel
/forum/topic/600984/3796

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Tim Ashton
Registered: Dec 27, 2006
Total Posts: 3071
Country: Australia

Donald Gray wrote:
nickjohnson wrote:
Dear Sir Donald,

It's so nice to hear from you following your recent computer difficulties – tricky customers those on / off switches – and so cunningly disguised too, with words like “Power” and “On” - all very confusing.

Now you know very well that I did none of the bad behaviour detailed previously. Everyone knows that lady Grey is far too gracious to mention such things in a public place such as this. Might I suggest a little more study of your “Creative Writing For The Older Gentleman” course material might be in order?

Regarding “.....make the vehicle secure against rouges and vagabonds”, I should point out that doing so would have made it impossible for you to drive your own car.

Regards,

Slow Nick.

(Former Butler to the nobility and gentry. Oh, and single day “minder” to Sir Donald Grey)



Mr Johnson are you inferring that I was telling some untruths and masquerading as Lady Diana? Shame on you sir. I would never step so low as to render my honour and reputation in tatters.

Firstly, my recent computer difficulties was caused by a miscreant rodent that decided to up and die in a most undignified manner, leaving my computer incapacitated until after its funeral and subsequent reincarnation.

With regards to the events of Friday evening that Lady Diana so eloquently and succinctly described, she did refrain from mentioning several of the other alarming and strange events of that evening; We are still perplexed as to how did the statuette of the Goddess Venus have its head exchanged with the garden gnome? And how come the initials ‘NJ’ were deeply scratched on her left buttock? (I refer to the statuette's left buttock, not Lady Diana's)

Can you shed any light on how my zimmer (walker frame) became lodged high up the English Oak tree that you seemed to take a fancy to?

It took ages to untie the ‘I love the Rolling Stones’ banner from the TV antenna especially as we didn’t have a tv antenna in the first place.

Lady Diana has asked me to pass on to Mrs J her deepest sympathies and to say that she fully understands.

Respectfully yours
Sir Donald

To all: Lady Diana & I would like it to be known by all and sundry of the immediate vacancy of Under-Butler with the prospects of being elevated to that of a ‘gentleman’s gentleman’ and companion. The prospective candidate must be of exemplary character, able to look after a gentleman of repute. Be of sober habits. And above all, have a sense of humour.



Sir Donald,
Do you accept applications for the position from house trained antipodeans?
If so, I would appreciate if you could forward the terms of engagement
Respectfully yours
Tim Ashton



nickjohnson
Registered: Sep 15, 2009
Total Posts: 780
Country: United Kingdom

JWilsonphoto wrote:
Does anyone know where this Spit is based. We have a partner whose Dad flew it in WWII and we want to find it, and or find one and restore it in his Dad's scheme. I know the brain trust can find it. It's in the UK I believe.........



…... well, since this is a serious enquiry, and at the risk of causing unrest in the family, I have to say “not so fast”.

The aeroplane in your picture has a “blunt” fin (vertical stab), the BBMF bird has the “pointy” fin. Also your picture shows – I think – an aeroplane with clipped wing tips.

Soooo we need more info. Basically folks can paint up their warbird anyway they choose – so the numbers and letters may mean little. For example if the gent in question served with the Eighth Air Force Eagle Squadron there is some evidence of them flying clipped wing MKV aircraft. On the other hand if we look at your photo and take a punt at MJ852 it was a Mark IXB of the Royal Canadian Air Force, I say “was” because apparently Sqn Ldr Everard baled out of it on Christmas Day 1944 over Venlo Netherlands. See what I mean?

We now return you to your scheduled programming.



….. sorry, got to go now – the Butlers Bell just rang. It's Lady Grey needing assistance with Sir Donald's medication.



futurshox
Registered: Feb 15, 2008
Total Posts: 2440
Country: United States

Well that, and I suspect you might have a tough job prising a shiny Spitfire like that away from the BBMF...!



ImperfectSense
Registered: Apr 05, 2010
Total Posts: 10
Country: United States

Hahaha, I know just what you mean! We had a bird strike on the wing once, put a big dent in it, and we tried to talk the owner into letting us put a bird kill marking on the airplane... Our preferred idea was to paint a little feather in the kitten's mouth. Unfortunately that idea "didn't fly"



ImperfectSense
Registered: Apr 05, 2010
Total Posts: 10
Country: United States

It is actually quite a simple matter to convert a Spitfire between pointy/rounded rudder and elliptical/clipped wingtips, from a mechanical point of view. The wingtips are simply bolt-on accessories, choose your poison, and for the tail you just hang a different rudder. The markings on these airplanes can certainly change a lot, but the one thing that shouldn't change is the manufacturer's serial number. In the case of the Historic Flight Spit that's SL633, in this case it's MK356. I'm not saying it never happens, but generally since this is the link to the aircraft's true history, it is left alone.

Here is a photo of this aircraft from 1986 when it was on static display only, elliptical wings and a rounded rudder: http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Supermarine-361-Spitfire/0372931/&sid=4322ff73e3303f0ab446c877c0aa020f

In 2003 with the BBMF the aircraft is flying again, still has the rounded tail but has acquired clipped wings: http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Supermarine-361-Spitfire/0418329/&sid=4322ff73e3303f0ab446c877c0aa020f

By the 2004 show season they had added a pointy rudder: http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Supermarine-361-Spitfire/0568153/&sid=4322ff73e3303f0ab446c877c0aa020f

The repaint occurred during 2007, at which time they bolted on elliptical wingtips again:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Supermarine-361-Spitfire/1730055/&sid=4322ff73e3303f0ab446c877c0aa020f

The BBMF page specifically states that this aircraft served with the RCAF during the war and lists the history of the airframe. The final paragraph explains that she is now painted as a different Spitfire entirely, MJ250, which led a very different life: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/theaircraft/spitfiremk356.cfm

Sorry about the long reply, Spits and their history have become a hobby of mine. I've been busy tracking down the history of SL633 and fleshing out details for months. Does anyone here speak Czech? Or better yet, live in the Union of Myanmar?



nickjohnson
Registered: Sep 15, 2009
Total Posts: 780
Country: United Kingdom

Liz …. not long at all. Actually a very good illustration of the point I was trying to make. Sorry about my error – yes it's the rudder that is pointy or not. However, one might find that the rudders are not quite as interchangeable as one might be led to believe – it's my understanding that the fins also changed size as development progressed.

So what do you think the a/c is in Jim's photo? Is it the BBMF bird in 2003 guise? I'm not totally convinced – the Letter after the M is unclear – is it really a K?

… ah well





ImperfectSense
Registered: Apr 05, 2010
Total Posts: 10
Country: United States

Spits, especially in Duxford, do change their colors very often, which can make it extremely difficult to tell what is "real" and what isn't. Our B-25 was restored there and it too changed paint, from an RCAF training airplane it became 'Grumpy,' the RAF B-25 that flew the most combat missions of WWII. We can't imagine her as anything else now, but it's not exactly an authentic paint job.

I do believe that is the BBMF bird around 2003. One clue is the big white modern helmet the pilot is wearing. Most Spitfire owners try to wear something a little more authentic to the time period, for instance the pilot of Historic Flight's Spitfire has a leather helmet with a hard shell inside, it's a balancing act between safety and authenticity. The BBMF however wear RAF helmets, and all of the other photos of MK356 flying during that time period show a white helmeted pilot. Add to this the fact that there are no photos of an RCAF painted 21 V after the BBMF bird changed its spots...

As for the rudder, certainly the surface area of it may be different depending on its shape, but the actual mounting hardware and size/shape of the vertical stabilizer remain the same, as far as I know no modifications to the airframe are required to switch between the two.



nickjohnson
Registered: Sep 15, 2009
Total Posts: 780
Country: United Kingdom

Yup, white helmet does it for me too.

So that will be one of these http://www.platinumfighters.com/#!spitfire-ix-mj730/c1kmj + clipped tips + “tidying” + paint + annual + …. It's not going to be inexpensive then.



Jan-Arie
Registered: Dec 24, 2005
Total Posts: 3667
Country: Netherlands

Hurricane
P51C



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 3496
Country: United States

nickjohnson wrote:
Yup, white helmet does it for me too.

So that will be one of these http://www.platinumfighters.com/#!spitfire-ix-mj730/c1kmj + clipped tips + “tidying” + paint + annual + …. It's not going to be inexpensive then.
]


I think the last time the words 'inexpensive' and 'Spitfire' could legitimately be used in the same sentence was circa 1955.



Jan-Arie
Registered: Dec 24, 2005
Total Posts: 3667
Country: Netherlands

stevez wrote:
nickjohnson wrote:
Yup, white helmet does it for me too.

So that will be one of these http://www.platinumfighters.com/#!spitfire-ix-mj730/c1kmj + clipped tips + “tidying” + paint + annual + …. It's not going to be inexpensive then.
]


I think the last time the words 'inexpensive' and 'Spitfire' could legitimately be used in the same sentence was circa 1955.


Yeah back then you could buy a crated one for a couple of pounds..



Razor17
Registered: Oct 08, 2012
Total Posts: 346
Country: United States

Glenn Watson wrote:
Hi Lynn:
I'm not positive but I think thats Lake Waxahachie.

Glenn



Thanks, its on the East of 35 and I'm on the West side...

Lynn



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 16334
Country: United States

Whatever the Spitfire intricacies are, turns out that is the airframe our partner's father flew in WWII. As pointed out, these aircraft have gone through so many mods, restorations, iterations over the years.



NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 7841
Country: United States

Glad the bird strike wasn't more serious. Maybe put a store bought feather in a window then, since you can't paint one on?

ImperfectSense wrote:
Hahaha, I know just what you mean! We had a bird strike on the wing once, put a big dent in it, and we tried to talk the owner into letting us put a bird kill marking on the airplane... Our preferred idea was to paint a little feather in the kitten's mouth. Unfortunately that idea "didn't fly"



Chris Luvara
Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Total Posts: 140
Country: United States

ImperfectSense wrote:
Hahaha, I know just what you mean! We had a bird strike on the wing once, put a big dent in it, and we tried to talk the owner into letting us put a bird kill marking on the airplane... Our preferred idea was to paint a little feather in the kitten's mouth. Unfortunately that idea "didn't fly"


While we were putting my airplane back together after a birdstrike a friend of mine put this little sticker on. 4 more and I'm an Ace... hope I never get there!





JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 16334
Country: United States

Interesting topic. Texas has plenty of thermal circling Turkey Vultures. When I see them I always wonder if a hit in just the right spot would take out a strut.



Wrei
Registered: Aug 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2257
Country: United States

I actually see more of the Black Vulture here in Central Texas






than the Turkey Vulture







An interesting point that I have seen is the black vulture waits for the turkey vulture to tear open the carcass for them. The black vulture beak is not as tough as the turkey vulture, and the black vulture will bully the turkey vulture away when they are ready to feed.


nickjohnson
Registered: Sep 15, 2009
Total Posts: 780
Country: United Kingdom

Ah yes bird strikes. Having seen the damage they can do, not much would surprise me now on that score.

Back in the day I remember doing a particular Harrier tailplane repair. The bird had gone through the leading edge – not much of deal since the LE was only a thin closing section – but then it had bulged and peeled the top and bottom skins, which where 1/10th of an inch alloy at that point. After that the darn thing still had the energy to dent the front spar, which at that point was ¼ of an inch alloy section. Fortunately the hit was just outboard of the join section between the centre box and the flying part of the tailplane, so we just built on a new “half” and sent it back out to play some more.



RobMoser
Registered: Sep 04, 2007
Total Posts: 841
Country: United States

JWilsonphoto wrote:
Interesting topic. Texas has plenty of thermal circling Turkey Vultures. When I see them I always wonder if a hit in just the right spot would take out a strut.


A friend of mine took one of them more or less at the wing root of the left wing. It left a gigantic dent which did nothing for the aerodynamics.

Rob



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 3496
Country: United States

JWilsonphoto wrote:
Interesting topic. Texas has plenty of thermal circling Turkey Vultures. When I see them I always wonder if a hit in just the right spot would take out a strut.


Back in the day, at the now-defunct Black Forest Gliderport in Colorado, somebody was flying a Schweitzer SGS 1-34 single seater in a thermal with a golden eagle. Now, raptors are normally perfectly willing to share a thermal with a glider so long as you don't sneak up on them from behind. In fact, I think they take secret pleasure in outclimbing us pretenders.

I wasn't there, but in this case it was said the glider pilot harassed the bird, over and over, to the point that it turned and stooped on him. Justified or not, it was a bad day for the bird: it buried itself in the leading edge of the aluminum wing all the way back to the main spar and was killed. A bad day for the pilot: in addition to an in-flight emergency and a hefty repair bill, the state fish and game people were not amused that he had killed a golden, which is a protected species in Colorado.



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