Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel
/forum/topic/600984/3760

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NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 9056
Country: United States

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Mrussfoto
Registered: Dec 28, 2012
Total Posts: 16
Country: United States

One of my favorite things about this thread is the way everyone truly cares for one another when tragedy strikes. This thread has truly turned into a family. May God bless those by the affected by the accident today and help heal their hearts.



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19068
Country: United States

Welcome home Tony! Cool shots!! Someone needs to ring that bonehead's doorbell, his schtick is getting a little old. Glad you are home safe and sound. Hey, who is the dashing young guy in the white shirt?



astrobrian
Registered: Sep 27, 2012
Total Posts: 827
Country: United States

Sad day at Le Mans too. Crazy how life is for the sports in our life.



Wrei
Registered: Aug 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2922
Country: United States

Guess I won't be waiting on the 'big' moon tonight...







stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 4071
Country: United States

So sad to think of the families of the Dayton performers; Laura and Erich, I hope you and the others who witnessed it will be able to put it behind you.

Reviewing the video, things look OK at the entry (low angle of attack, and lined up well), but the maneuver starts to go south during the half-roll to inverted, when the aircraft veered pretty markedly toward the crowd (a combination of yaw toward the heavy wing and 'nose down' pitch while steeply banked). She represented a lot of drag out there on the wing: the pilot seemed to get a little sideways in the roll and pushed forward stick a little too hard through the knife-edge, scrubbing off some energy in doing so; and then he was maybe startled to see the crowd in front of him so pushed the stick forward again, instinctively, to get the nose up, and it snapped out from under him. I wonder if he ran out of aileron authority, too, in the last instants before it snapped: the wings never reached level in inverted flight.



Jan-Arie
Registered: Dec 24, 2005
Total Posts: 4075
Country: Netherlands

msalvetti wrote:
Tough day in Dayton (my thoughts are with all of you that witnessed this, and the families of all involved), and tough day at Tertre Rouge (for those not following, Danish driver Allan Simonsen was killed 10 minutes into the 24 hours when his Aston Martin went off into the Armco).

J-A, don't know if you've seen the in-car from the car following, but it looked like Simonsen got up on the rumble strip, went squirrely, then veered straight off into the barrier.

Mark


Hey Mark no i havent seen the footage we were at the Porsche curve when it happend but your right he went over the curbes and was gone very sad he was only 34



NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 9056
Country: United States

Tony, did you also do the DMZ tour while you were there? How'd you happen to be in South Korea anyhow? And what's up with "This Side Off", for someone not in the know Sheesh, I'm nothing but questions this morning, rolled out of bed without the assistance of an alarm clock, at 4:15am



NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 9056
Country: United States

I'm no expert in these things, but I also wonder how much of a role the weather had in this, as the area I'm in, not that far from the airport, had rain and was extremely muggy when I got home. The airport's on the north side of I-70 and I live on the south side of I-70, less than ten miles between us, I'm guessing, in a straight line.

stevez wrote:
So sad to think of the families of the Dayton performers; Laura and Erich, I hope you and the others who witnessed it will be able to put it behind you.

Reviewing the video, things look OK at the entry (low angle of attack, and lined up well), but the maneuver starts to go south during the half-roll to inverted, when the aircraft veered pretty markedly toward the crowd (a combination of yaw toward the heavy wing and 'nose down' pitch while steeply banked). She represented a lot of drag out there on the wing: the pilot seemed to get a little sideways in the roll and pushed forward stick a little too hard through the knife-edge, scrubbing off some energy in doing so; and then he was maybe startled to see the crowd in front of him so pushed the stick forward again, instinctively, to get the nose up, and it snapped out from under him. I wonder if he ran out of aileron authority, too, in the last instants before it snapped: the wings never reached level in inverted flight.



futurshox
Registered: Feb 15, 2008
Total Posts: 2754
Country: United States

I am hearing rumors that Rod Lewis has bought Jerry Yagan's Mosquito....



sjms
Registered: Mar 21, 2003
Total Posts: 23495
Country: United States

GEnx-1B engine fan on a B787-800



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 4071
Country: United States

NightOwl Cat wrote:
I'm no expert in these things, but I also wonder how much of a role the weather had in this, as the area I'm in, not that far from the airport, had rain and was extremely muggy when I got home. The airport's on the north side of I-70 and I live on the south side of I-70, less than ten miles between us, I'm guessing, in a straight line.


Hot and humid (I read it was 90+ in Dayton yesterday, with RH around 75%) is the worst combination for density altitude. It's not well known outside aviation circles but humid air is less dense than dry air, despite what it feels like to us. Increased density altitude reduces engine output and increases true airspeeds, and thus reduces the performance margins built into any low-level airshow act. The last airshow fatality I remember in Colorado (where density altitudes at the surface in Denver often soar to 10,000' or more) was a victim of density altitude: the wx for Sunday's show was 10-15 degrees warmer than on Saturday, and a MIG 17 pancaked into the ground on the backside of a low-altitude loop: he didn't get quite as much altitude at the top in the hotter weather and didn't have quite enough margin to finish the maneuver. Almost, but not quite.



futurshox
Registered: Feb 15, 2008
Total Posts: 2754
Country: United States

Aaaaand now I am hearing that Jerry Yagen is selling his entire collection!



mrkyle
Registered: Jul 06, 2008
Total Posts: 600
Country: United States

Laura and the rest of the gang that was in Dayton Saturday,

I probably saw some of you on the photo tour and did not even know it. I have been really busy with my life & work and have not spent a lot of time lately looking at all of the fantastic images from you talented folks or taking photos of my own.

After the Indianapolis show got canceled I was very much looking forward to going to Dayton. I was hoping to meet a few of the folks who hang out here but never had the time to check in and make arrangements.

I was also very excited to be in Dayton for another reason. I was going to do a short hop in "Aurora" Jane Wickers Stearman as a thank you for allowing them to use of one my images in the design of some of their merchandise items. My wife and I drove down Friday and met Jane and the gang at the airport around 4pm.

I flew in Aurora with Rock at the controls and had a grand time. It was my first flight in an open cockpit plane and my first time doing some aerobatics. WOW even though I am blessed with a wimpy stomach I was having way too much fun to think about getting sick. Rock let me fly the plane a bit, another first for me. They even mounted a go-pro on the tail to get video for me.

While I was up making holes in the sky my wife was getting to know Jane, Charlie and Brian back at the Wright Aero hanger. She later commented to me that they were a great group of people. We came back and they all signed one of the shirts for me and we had a little photo op in front of the plane.

That was one of the most exciting things I have done in a long time, and now it seems so small and trivial as my wife and I witnessed Saturdays tragic event up close. We were along the fence line just left of the photo pit. I was shooting as the plane went down trying real hard to get a few really nice shots to send them as a thank you. I have not brought myself to look at any of the photos

After it happened I just sat back down stunned, It probably took me 10 minutes to actually process what I just saw. I just knew that they could not have survived that crash. I suppose it took another ten minutes for me to snap out of it and decide that even if the show went on I was done for the day. We packed up and took the long slow back roads way home. I was in no shape to be on I-75.

I later found out that indeed they both had died in the crash.

After spending a short amount of time with all of the Jane Wicker crew it was obvious that they loved what they we doing, even with the crazy schedules they all kept. Having met them and talking with them and knowing a little about them and then witnessing the crash it hit me a little hard.

I commented to my wife early Saturday morning that any day you can see an F-86 and a B-29 is going to be a good day, but I was wrong. I'm still feeling, actually I'm not really sure how I feel I just know I don't feel normal. I do however feel a little better after telling this story. Thanks for listening.

Regards to all

Matt



stevezzzz
Registered: Aug 01, 2010
Total Posts: 4071
Country: United States

Gosh, Matt, that really brings this tragedy to a personal level. I hope you forgive my analyzing the video; we pilots tend to do that, not to be ghoulish but to try and learn something we can use to save our own hides the next time we go up.

At any rate, I'm sorry you have to live with the bad memories, to go with the good.

[edit for TOPP. I'm on my iPad so the selection is limited...and you've already seen most of them ]



mrkyle
Registered: Jul 06, 2008
Total Posts: 600
Country: United States

stevez wrote:
Gosh, Matt, that really brings this tragedy to a personal level. I hope you forgive my analyzing the video; we pilots tend to do that, not to be ghoulish but to try and learn something we can use to save our own hides the next time we go up.

At any rate, I'm sorry you have to live with the bad memories, to go with the good.


Nothing to forgive, I too looked at a few videos and wondered what could have gone wrong. I'm not a pilot but I have flown R/C sailplanes for a long time and certainly have enough knowledge to be dangerous. You can learn from others mistakes but in this case even though I did not know them well it made what was a tragic event to witness just that much harder to move on from.



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19068
Country: United States

Dear Matt,

What a wonderful experience you enjoyed with them earlier, and what a stark contrast in conclusion. My heart goes out to you. None of you will be "over" it any time soon. The mind is a funny thing, Tony could tell us much more about how it works in these situations, and how it parses what it needs to so we can cope.

You aren't going to feel normal for awhile, don't try to. Yesterday as I walked out of the hangar I looked up at Glenn's picture, talked idiotically to him for about five minutes, put the door down and drove away. I still haven't fully processed the loss, maybe never will. And Sheila and I have lost family in a variety of terrible ways, so we're not strangers to loss. It just doesn't get any easier.

FWIW, I think Zim's analysis, and mine are pretty accurate. Lot's of little factors just lined up at the wrong time, the wing stalled and that was it. I've said it a number of times, to survive in the air show business you have to be at 110% of your best, every time, and that is humanly impossible. When I look at the list of my friends, literally the best of the best, they went out at a point where their best just wasn't at the required 110% level that day for whatever reason, and it got them. Some acts like Franklin, Leroy, etc, just kept getting further and further out there in the realm of risk, and pure statistics/odds go into play. You do that long enough, it is going to get you. Yesterday was just one of those flukes where conditions conspired and lined up for a tragedy.

Charlie dies in a landing roll accident, Glenn is lost doing a simple break that he had practiced six times the day before. This is all the stuff that swirls through my head as I raise the hangar door. If it can happen to them...............................Certainly, what they do raises the risk bar to a level I have less than zero interest in approaching. On the other hand, I have lost a number of friends in general aviation shortly after the words, "let me show you this..." were spoken. No one is immune.



Colin Giersberg
Registered: Jun 01, 2008
Total Posts: 2264
Country: United States

I hope what I say below doesn't come across in a bad way, I just have a difficult time expressing my thoughts in matters like these.

Matt, even though this ended in tragedy for Jane and Charlie, and your most vivid memories are of the accident, try to dwell on the enjoyment that you had before the accident. They enjoyed what they were doing and knew the risks involved. Even at that, they enjoyed their work performing.



NightOwl Cat
Registered: Feb 19, 2007
Total Posts: 9056
Country: United States

Erich just went for a Cobra ride and I may go on a Huey



JWilsonphoto
Registered: Jan 16, 2002
Total Posts: 19068
Country: United States

Well said Colin.

Go Laura!!



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