From yesterday morning
/forum/topic/1169983/0

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ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

While I was shooting sunrises at Utah Lake. I swung my camera around for this shot. I just wanted to see what others thought about it. I don't know what to think.



sadja
Registered: Nov 05, 2002
Total Posts: 285
Country: United States

I don't what to think either. There's not much point to the image.



Camperjim
Registered: Oct 17, 2011
Total Posts: 1899
Country: United States

I think I would prefer a lot less of the rocks. I know you like to keep a standard aspect ratio but I think I would crop off some of the bottom of the image. It does seem like your early morning outing was worth the effort.



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

Hi Jim, I don't understand the type which I have seen before so I am open to all suggestions. The only reason I posted this is because it looks to me like it has leading lines. That was an accident on my part, but when I saw it, I wanted to get some insight from people who understand the type.

I got some really great color later and in another direction. So this was one more of an experiment.



Camperjim
Registered: Oct 17, 2011
Total Posts: 1899
Country: United States

There are "leading" lines but they don't lead anywhere of interest as far as I can see.

Anyway I thought this would be better with fewer rocks and sjadja wants an image with a point. That should not be difficult.



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

Ha ha. Good point.



RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

Took a stab ...



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

Thanks Kent. And I probably owe the forum an apology. I should never post an image in which I have no personal connection. This was a fishing expedition, but I knew in advance that there was nothing here.

I am still working out the what to post and where thing. This forum has been very helpful in helping me refine what I take and in post processing. I still want to post problem images here.

It seems that a purely experimental image might be ok or one that has promise when fixed. But not one in which I really have no interest.



RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

No apologies needed ... it's all fair game.

Sometimes a posted image gives us something to "ooh & ahh" over, other times it presents something for critical analysis, tips & techniques, or simply expand our consideration of something not previously given credence to. and yet other times it is an opportunity to make lemonade from lemons and have a little fun.

Nobody shoots 100% winners ... same goes for posts. While some flourish (posts or pics), others die on the vine ... but we still keep striving to be better sowers, that we can become better reapers. Let the sowing continue such that the harvest abound.

The consideration for the forum is noted & appreciated ... but imo, it's all fair game, no worries.



Camperjim
Registered: Oct 17, 2011
Total Posts: 1899
Country: United States

Please don't apologize for posting an image which is not great but raises issues for discussion. I have plenty of these I want to post. In fact I may not have much except for problem images.



RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

Camperjim wrote: In fact I may not have much except for problem images.

Isn't every image a problem of one sort or another? I know mine all are.



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

If I want ohhs and ahs, this is the wrong forum, this is specifically a critique forum not for presentation. If I center an image on purpose, this is the wrong forum.

If I take a "me too" image just for something to do, this may be ok but it also has little value to me.

Any image can be changed and any change may have its detractors and admirers. But if you have a good capture of a good scene and have presented it the way you want, critique ends up being about post processing tricks or cropping suggestions not about the image itself.

It seems to me I ought to stay in my style niche, and present the ones I am happy with at Landscape and the worthy ones that need more help here.

But this is probably also a good place for the experimental stuff like moonlight shots where I am developing a technique.

If I am off base here, please let me know.






RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

We don't mind a little "oooh & ahhh" eye candy along the way.

Granted your perspective @ the PC forum's technical intent is likely spot on ... but we can let our hair down a bit for some eye candy too, I think. Don't hold out on us too much.



rotorwash4944
Registered: Jan 09, 2011
Total Posts: 159
Country: United States

I don't think this requires an apology at all... in fact, I believe it is great example of how we mere mortals begin developing a good thought process when choosing what to frame. No question it was a beautiful morning, so the first thing we all do is instinctively reach for the camera. Although wonderfully composed, with pretty colors, the simple question of "what's the point" instantly forces one to up their game and teaches an important lesson. Thank you for such a prime example



Camperjim
Registered: Oct 17, 2011
Total Posts: 1899
Country: United States

Ben wrote: "But if you have a good capture of a good scene and have presented it the way you want, critique ends up being about post processing tricks or cropping suggestions not about the image itself."

I am not sure I would agree. I was just trying to process some images I took at Death Valley before, during and after a violent storm. I have plenty of captures with proper exposure and proper focus so I guess they are "good". They don't come close to representing what I saw. I seem to find that sort of thing happens often. The ooc image just doesn't work and needs some processing to even come close to recreating what I saw.



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

Camperjim wrote:
Ben wrote: "But if you have a good capture of a good scene and have presented it the way you want, critique ends up being about post processing tricks or cropping suggestions not about the image itself."

I am not sure I would agree. I was just trying to process some images I took at Death Valley before, during and after a violent storm. I have plenty of captures with proper exposure and proper focus so I guess they are "good". They don't come close to representing what I saw. I seem to find that sort of thing happens often. The ooc image just doesn't work and needs some processing to even come close to recreating what I saw.



Well that would mean it does not meet my "presented the way I want" criteria and falls into the other category of a worthy image that needs help. That's what I think I am going to do. My "need some color help" was a good example.

The image that started this thread is just a "me too" thing. The big problem is that I think it is like other images I have seen but don't really understand at even a basic level so it is only a "me too" in my mind and others can't even see what it is attempting to copy.

I don't have much of a clue what people want to do with non-centered, or leading lines or read left to right or subject pointer etc. These are sort of like many grammar rules which I have sort of memorized (but often mess up) and consider totally worthless and illogical.



RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

I ain't so sure I don't reckon I understan' by what you means you is messin' up grammy's rulers. D'ey seemed to work jus' fine back when she was tannin' my hide wit 'em ... I membered dem rulers real good two, but I doesn't recall ever messin' 'em up.

Rules ... we don't need no stinkin' rules.



ben egbert
Registered: Jan 31, 2005
Total Posts: 6558
Country: United States

Hey, maks sens to me



Mister Bean
Registered: Jan 30, 2007
Total Posts: 593
Country: United States

ben egbert wrote:
If I want ohhs and ahs, this is the wrong forum, this is specifically a critique forum not for presentation. If I center an image on purpose, this is the wrong forum.

If I take a "me too" image just for something to do, this may be ok but it also has little value to me.

Any image can be changed and any change may have its detractors and admirers. But if you have a good capture of a good scene and have presented it the way you want, critique ends up being about post processing tricks or cropping suggestions not about the image itself.

It seems to me I ought to stay in my style niche, and present the ones I am happy with at Landscape and the worthy ones that need more help here.

But this is probably also a good place for the experimental stuff like moonlight shots where I am developing a technique.

If I am off base here, please let me know.


Critique on this forum is quite a bit different from my experience with it in school and in art groups. While I mostly do photography now, I've taken a fair number of art classes for drawing, painting and sculpture and have participated in art groups for the same. In those, critique was a process more similar to what's described on this page: [url]http://www.wikihow.com/Critique-Artwork[/url] So discussion of the technical elements of the piece was certainly a part of the critique, but what typically took more time was discussion of the interpretation of the work - the viewer's interpretation of the artist's intent, the artist describing their intent, the feelings evoked, symbols in the work, the value of the work, etc. Critique here does often become just a series of reworks rather than a real discussion of the work itself.

A couple reasons for this come to mind. The first is that this has become the forum on the site that people bring unfinished pieces to. In my experience, one would typically bring a finished piece to a critique. The other is that a more in depth critique is hard. It takes real thought, particularly when you're not familiar with the process. It's much easier to post a rework.

I sometimes find this somewhat disappointing. Seeing the various types of processing can be interesting. But it doesn't have the same value as a deeper discussion of the piece. There's a little of this in the other forums, but stil not much.

I would just post where you want to and explain whether you're looking for help, or otherwise.



RustyBug
Registered: Feb 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12983
Country: United States

Mister Bean wrote:
what typically took more time was discussion of the interpretation of the work - the viewer's interpretation of the artist's intent, the artist describing their intent, the feelings evoked, symbols in the work, the value of the work, etc.

A couple reasons for this come to mind.



"What's the point?" or "What is the message that you want to convey to your viewer?"


While I have advocated those questions to OP's for quite some time ... I think that some of the images that are presented here, the OP themselves haven't even begun to embark on the mindful aspects of their own "artist's intent". When the creator of the image doesn't know his intent ... it's kinda hard to discuss the deeper philosophical aspects of the message contained therein.

There will always be both parts of technical & message ... with, imo, technicals & reworks should be driven by the intent of the image / message. For many, they simply want to be able to produce an aesthetically pleasing image to garner "Look what I did." response. Images that are being created with an intended message are somewhat more rare in regard to "Here's what I'm trying to say." or "Here are some things to think about."

I am inclined to believe that as technology has prolifically expanded the ease of our craft, many have become "lazy" in their aspirations to use it as means for conveying a message and largely have abandoned it as such, simply aspiring to use it to either emulate others or garner the "ooh & ahh" ... prior to utilizing images as a means for message delivery.

Taking that same concept into a different art form, today's quilters make amazingly detailed "pretty quilts" ... whereas there was a time that quilts were a very strong combination of "art" and "message" ... often telling the message of family, heritage, history, emotion & feeling. I think that the blending of art and message is well represented in the quilts that were made to provide directions in concert with the "underground railroad" or as families made "double wedding ring" quilts as wedding gifts for bride & groom. Very different messages, interwoven into the craft, yet there was still a point / message instilled among its creation.

Whether it be quilts, photographs or any other art form ... without a point or message, it often times just falls into the category of something pretty ... and for the masses, that's often what they are looking for ... others aspire for more.




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