Please suggest LCD (and Q's on colour mgmt)
/forum/topic/1157009/0



rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

Hi,

A couple of Q's for advice on colours.

Background
I'm using a 5DmkII + 5D, a Mac Pro 2010 Quad core and a 5-year old 30" Apple Cinema Display. The display is very stylish, but it has to go. Now that I turned pro I can't afford messing with colour anymore. The colours of an image change (slightly but definitely) when dragging the image across the screen. So I will need a new LCD that has true colours. I'd like to keep my Mac Pro.

Q1: which screen for professional PP work?
I'm used to 2560 pixels wide in a 30" package. It would be hard to move to a smaller screen, but quality is my main objective. Which brand/type would you recommend? 27" would be fine too, 24" is a lot smaller but doable if there is a quality trade-off otherwise. I expect you will suggest non-Apple brands, no problem there.

Q2: Adobe RGB or SRGB in camera?
I always stayed away from AdobeRGB setting in camera, because the manual says "don't use AdobeRGB if you don't know what you're doing" - or something of the like. A well respected fellow photographer says he uses AdobeRGB only, so I'm in doubt now. Is there much to learn before being able to make good prints from AdobeRGB RAW files? Could you point me to some useful info to read?

Q3: Epson 3880
I'm considering a Epson 3880 printer to do all of my professional printing. I'm tired of having to send all of my work to a lab, even with turnaround times of 2 days. Is this thing any good for clients who expect the best?

Q4: White point and calibration device
I calibrated my screens (Apple 30 Cinema Display + Macbook Pro + Macbook) using the built-in Apple screen utility. At some point it says i should choose a "white point". If I go with 65 (suggested) then I get a very pleasing warm image, but it's not accurate. Because the prints I get back from the lab are all very coolish WB. How is it that the user gets to choose a white point!? I'd expect the software to make sure I have accurate white balance.
So: I probably need a more professional calibration device. So given I want to get a good printer and get my colour workflow right from camera to print, which type of calibration device would you suggest?

Thanks a lot!

Ralph.




mshi
Registered: Dec 13, 2010
Total Posts: 3410
Country: United States

rabbitmountain wrote:
Q1: which screen for professional PP work?
I'm used to 2560 pixels wide in a 30" package. It would be hard to move to a smaller screen, but quality is my main objective. Which brand/type would you recommend? 27" would be fine too, 24" is a lot smaller but doable if there is a quality trade-off otherwise. I expect you will suggest non-Apple brands, no problem there.


You want to consider at least 10-bit monitor that is capable of displaying 1 billion colors. For the money, I prefer this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/769647-REG/ASUS_PA246Q_PA246Q_24_1_Widescreen_LCD.html

If money is not an issue, consider this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/816468-REG/Eizo_CG275W_BK_ColorEdge_CG275W_27_Widescreen.html

If you absolutely want the best that money can buy, get this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/818436-REG/Eizo_CG232W_BK_ColorEdge_22_5_Color_Calibration.html

rabbitmountain wrote:
Q2: Adobe RGB or SRGB in camera?
I always stayed away from AdobeRGB setting in camera, because the manual says "don't use AdobeRGB if you don't know what you're doing" - or something of the like. A well respected fellow photographer says he uses AdobeRGB only, so I'm in doubt now. Is there much to learn before being able to make good prints from AdobeRGB RAW files? Could you point me to some useful info to read?


It depends. If you just shoot JPEG without any intentions to do PP, shoot sRGB. If you intend to do PP later and shoot RAW, do aRGB.

rabbitmountain wrote:
Q3: Epson 3880
I'm considering a Epson 3880 printer to do all of my professional printing. I'm tired of having to send all of my work to a lab, even with turnaround times of 2 days. Is this thing any good for clients who expect the best?


it's a fine printer but its printing speed is slow. if you print high volume, it's not going to cut it.

rabbitmountain wrote:
Q4: White point and calibration device
I calibrated my screens (Apple 30 Cinema Display + Macbook Pro + Macbook) using the built-in Apple screen utility. At some point it says i should choose a "white point". If I go with 65 (suggested) then I get a very pleasing warm image, but it's not accurate. Because the prints I get back from the lab are all very coolish WB. How is it that the user gets to choose a white point!? I'd expect the software to make sure I have accurate white balance.
So: I probably need a more professional calibration device. So given I want to get a good printer and get my colour workflow right from camera to print, which type of calibration device would you suggest?


to calibrate your monitor properly, start with 6500K/2.2/120 first.



WAYCOOL
Registered: May 15, 2004
Total Posts: 2421
Country: United States

Why are you suggesting a 10 bit display he is on a Mac so no support but it can't hurt.

I like my Dell U2710 but you might want to check out NEC and Eizo for high end monitors.

You defiantly want a calibration device for your monitor Colormunki, Spyder4 or I1 display any of which are much better than doing it by eye.

I prefer procolorRGB, your printer is capable of a bit larger gamut than sRGB so keep using aRGB, are you shooting raw if so it dose not matter what you set the camera at. Inkjet printers have a larger gamut and longer longevity than wet prints so they are just fine for a professional to use.



mshi
Registered: Dec 13, 2010
Total Posts: 3410
Country: United States

WAYCOOL wrote:
Why are you suggesting a 10 bit display he is on a Mac so no support but it can't hurt.


You kidding me? Mac OS doesn't support 10-bit color depth? But I know nothing about Apple stuff since I have been a Windows user since 1991 and still don't own and use any Apple stuff.



WAYCOOL
Registered: May 15, 2004
Total Posts: 2421
Country: United States

Mountain Lion is supposed to but as far as I can tell its still a no go.



sbeme
Registered: Dec 23, 2003
Total Posts: 17462
Country: United States

I have the NEC 24 inch PA series display bundled with their spectrometer and software. Wonderful. I am no color management expert, but the bundle makes life simple. It is a wide gamut display. The 30 inch is likely equal quality.
They are pricey.

Shoot RAW. You probably are. Or shoot RAW + jpeg to previsualize.
I keep it at aRGB but frankly I am not sure myself what effect color space selection has on RAW. I work in LR/PS and generally process in the widest space I can. Cambridge in Colour has some excellent overviews on color management. (I could use a review myself since it is hard for me to grasp sometimes)

I have the Epson 3800. You will have absolutely no image quality issues. As said above, there may be other considerations, depending on your volume of production. You need to go up a level for a roll feeder. I typically print 11x14 to 14x21 prints. Depending on the image sizet a print might take up to 10 minutes approx, if set at the hiqhest quality settings without bidirectional printing set on. I usually do small batches and attend to other tasks while the printer is printing, so I do not find this an issue. Personally I havent done a careful side by side to see if there is any noticeable loss in IQ printed with this on. I am told it rarely makes a difference. So, you could print faster.

Eric Chan's FAQ on the 3800 and the wide amount of online support in various forums makes the Epson printers another great option.

Scott



JaneG
Registered: Sep 03, 2005
Total Posts: 2006
Country: United Kingdom

Hi

yes adobe RGB for me ( the colour space is larger) so take advantage of that for your home prints.. but if you are shooting raw then you can worry about that later and change for output.. hopefully you are shooting raw...
Dont forget to convert to sRGB for web display otherwise the colours will be off. Many outputs such as the lower end print services ( but also blurb books) only want sRGB files so make sure you use the correct colour space when its required

I use my epson 3880 for my prints A2 and smaller and it produces really beautiful prints, all my clients remark on the quality of the prints. Of course if you are printing high volume then you need to think about another printer. if I'm doing an exhibition, then it does take a long time to get the prints done.. but usually Im doing one offs so the 3880 suits me fine.
so its a volume issue that should make you consider the choices, there is no question about the quality of the 3880 for me..

I have only just posted here ( look up 'is it worth the hassle') on making your own custom colour profiles for each paper that you use... yes it is worth the hassle.. the prints in the majority of cases are sooo much better. Once you have gone to the trouble of having a good calibated monitor (lots of calibrating systems to chose from but i use the eye -one) to make processing choices about your image.. then you have to think about production of the print ..so that the image that you have processed is printed accurately . this is achieved using bespoke colour profiles for your home printer .. each profile prepared for the individual papers that you use.

I use Permajet to scan my 'patch' prints and make the profiles.. but you could go the whole hog and do it all yourself but that is more time and money that is unnecessary in my opinion as permajet give me a very good service for free.


Hope this is of some help

Jane



rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

Thanks! I'm travelling and can only update this page and read it in the hotel room, which is what I'm going to do right now. I'll respond as soon as I'm back online (may take a day or two).

I'm shooting RAW, always.



rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

@ michael shi / Douglas: I went with Apple 5 years ago just because of Photography and colours. I don't know anything about 10 bit colour, but it seems strange to me Apple doesn't support it (though I immediately take your word for it!) I will make sure though to get a monitor that supports 10bit, for future compatibility.
@ Scott: I'm shooting RAW always. I'll have a look at the NEC PA series. It's good to hear the 3800 has no IQ issues. I'll have a look at Eric Chans's FAQ, thanks for that suggestion!
@ Jane: So you too are pleased with your 3880. That makes me think this is the right printer for me. Good to know I need to carefully create the colour profiles. I'll look up your post.
What is Permajet? Never heard of that. But I'll Google it first and it will reveal itself.

To all: Adobe RGB is still untreaded territory for me. Is it correct that I can still choose sRGB / AdobeRGB in PP when shooting RAW, whether I shoot sRGB or AdobeRGB in camera? In that case what's the point of selecting it in camera? For jpeg?
Anyway I think I need a tutorial on this subject. I'm convinced I want to use AdobeRGB, but I need to figure out how.

Thank you so much so far for your replies.



rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

Just an afterthought: what if I start out with a comprehensive colour management tool, because I need that anyway, and try to get the most out of my current equipment. So if I were to buy a colour sync tool only, which one would you recommend in my situation?

And specifically: I heard that for instance colormonki can be used on prints too, whereas spiders and such don't. Do I need a device that can read colour on printed paper to accurately create profiles for a printer?



rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

mshi wrote:to calibrate your monitor properly, start with 6500K/2.2/120 first.
Well if I use 6500K, the Mac Cinema Display is way too warm. If I set it to 7300K, it's getting closer to what I see on print.



JaneG
Registered: Sep 03, 2005
Total Posts: 2006
Country: United Kingdom

HI

sRGB /ADOBE RGB is no big deal if you shoot raw you can choose which one you want when processing your raw files. Yes the choice is important for your JPGS produced in camera

rule of thumb use ADOBE RGB for processing your files and keep in ADOBE RGB for your home printing
convert to sRGB for web output and other outputs that demand it ( ie BLURB books).. please dont worry about his issue its 'no biggie' just process ADOBE RGB first .


when you come to print... choose the right profile for your printer/paper/inl combination if your profile is not optimal the print can look nothing like the image on your monitor ( but make sure your monitor is calibrated). I have used profiles that are supposed to be made for my printer/ink/paper combination and they are dreadful.. almost to the point that you think the printer is broken.. it can shake your confidence that you think you have done something wrong

.. so if you are using a paper regularly I would really suggest your print a patch and send it off to get a colour profile for it or if you have a scanning device produce your own!

Permajet is a UK based company that supply printing high quality paper and provide a colour profiling service ... I just had a look and they sell though many european distributors but not USA

http://www.permajet.com/Where_to_Buy

I am a big fan of the fibre gloss and the parchment paper .. I just had some colour profiles made for my new papers Ive been using.


once you get over these issues you can then concentrate on the photography.. but it IS worth making the effort. Hence my inclusion of this subject on my blog

Jane




rabbitmountain
Registered: Aug 29, 2011
Total Posts: 940
Country: Netherlands

Wow thanks Jane for your info. I'll go and study some colour management info before I come back here because I feel I have a lot to learn before deciding on additional gear.