True value of the 5D3?
/forum/topic/1156135/0

1
       2       3       4       end

anthonygh
Registered: Jan 09, 2006
Total Posts: 1846
Country: United Kingdom

Today in the UK it is possible to buy a 5D3 from an established eBay importer for a shade under £2000.....a few months ago a shade under £3000 was the norm anywhere.

What does this say about the true value of current Canon gear? Is it always massively overpriced...the company just does that automatically and sees who bites at the price on offer? Or is it really taking the piss and offering gear to some markets at a much lower price than others...so again taking the piss. To put it bluntly.

The price mentioned above includes all import taxes and transport cost...so just how cheap is this camera to some dealers out there?



bbasiaga
Registered: Nov 14, 2008
Total Posts: 507
Country: United States

Cant really say what its worth to you, but it seems to sell well to pros at its listed $3500USD. Our local shop turns over its stock fairly briskly for a small market and an item of that price, for example.

To the enthusiast/advanced amateur it seems like $2800 is a lot more desirable.

I actually think the price of the D800 is hurting us. The 5DmkIII is much more versatile and that allows Canon to ask more for it. And they are right among their target market. Sure though, there is some early adopter premium being paid. As far as all these recent deals, i really don't think anyone can say for sure Canon has anything to do with it.

-Brian



RobDickinson
Registered: Sep 25, 2009
Total Posts: 3471
Country: New Zealand

UK RRP is always on the hopeful side vs greymarket imports.



Access
Registered: Jun 07, 2004
Total Posts: 1478
Country: United States

Remember the old internet adage, 'if it's too good to be true...'

Pricing volatility might just be the new normal. In the future new camera pricing might be similar to new video game releases or such.

Also understand that advertised prices, even if real, might be limited supply or such. They might have had one item at that price, and it may have already sold days ago. You never know until you actually make the order, it gets shipped, and you receive the item.



dmahar
Registered: Jan 12, 2011
Total Posts: 73
Country: Australia

I paid $3800 AUS including a 5 year extended warrenty on release day. Sold my 5D ii for $1900 AUS that week. Today I could get the 5Diii for $3000 AUS with 5 year warranty but only about $1400 for my used 5Dii. Net result is about the same in $$$ terms but I have had the pleasure of 6 months using the best camera I have ever owned! I have no doubt that I have gotten shots with the 5D iii that I would not have gotten at such high quality with with either my old 5D ii or my 7D.



Access
Registered: Jun 07, 2004
Total Posts: 1478
Country: United States

dmahar wrote:
But I have had the pleasure of 6 months using the best camera I have ever owned!

That's why I'd compare it to something like new video game releases. People rationalize it the same way, even.

People will gladly pay $59 or more the day of release, knowing full well the price will drop to $49. in a few weeks and $39. in a couple of months. It might not be quite so dramatic, but this may just be the new normal for this industry.



jctriguy
Registered: Oct 04, 2004
Total Posts: 1165
Country: Canada

Access wrote:
dmahar wrote:
But I have had the pleasure of 6 months using the best camera I have ever owned!

That's why I'd compare it to something like new video game releases. People rationalize it the same way, even.

People will gladly pay $59 or more the day of release, knowing full well the price will drop to $49. in a few weeks and $39. in a couple of months. It might not be quite so dramatic, but this may just be the new normal for this industry.


Video games wouldn't have the resale if selling an old model to buy the new model. If the net cost to upgrade is $1200 it doesn't really matter if you pay $3500 or $2800, the used gear you are selling will go down in value as well.



Access
Registered: Jun 07, 2004
Total Posts: 1478
Country: United States

jctriguy wrote:
Video games wouldn't have the resale if selling an old model to buy the new model. If the net cost to upgrade is $1200 it doesn't really matter if you pay $3500 or $2800, the used gear you are selling will go down in value as well.

I'm only comparing the short-term pricing and the rationalization, not the upgrade process.

Long term a camera is hardware, and the drop isn't going to be super dramatic. I doubt you'll find 5D classics in the bargain basement bin for 5% of the original price anytime soon. Also I think selling cameras shortly after upgrading is mostly an online thing, irl I know a lot of people just give them away or hang onto them.



Beni
Registered: May 31, 2005
Total Posts: 8408
Country: United Kingdom

Does it not just show how much canon UK are overpricing rather than how overpriced the camera is?



ChrisRD
Registered: May 19, 2009
Total Posts: 935
Country: United States

IMO it's a tough thing to quantify as it will vary for individuals. As a hobbyist I felt the initial price was a bit steep, but that's typical with new products and there is a premium to be paid for being an early adopter.

For me, it effectively replaced a couple of older camera bodies. It's a better performer and overall it fits my needs better then either/both of the cameras I sold to fund it and my kit is more compact and simplified now. Even at the early pricing it was a bit less than the resale value of the two cameras it replaced...so for me, I felt it was still a good value.

If I did not have gear to sell to fund the camera I probably would have waited a year or so for the price to drop, but as mentioned above, the value of the gear I sold was also dropping so it wouldn't have made that much of a monetary difference to wait in my case (and I also place some value on having the camera now rather than later).



jorkata
Registered: Sep 02, 2009
Total Posts: 698
Country: United States

anthonygh wrote:
What does this say about the true value of current Canon gear? Is it always massively overpriced...


All Canon products in the last year seem overpriced.
It basically looks like Canon has some new pricing policy is in place.

The hope is that Canon is not officially into market skimming, as it certainly looks that way these days.

Canon's stock is down 30% for the year, though, so it investors don't seem confident that Canon is doing things right either.



mmurph
Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Total Posts: 3007
Country: United States

Every manufacturer tries to price their products appropriately for the market, technology, and value that they deliver.

They are balancing literally many hundreds of thousands of variables, starting 2 years or more before release data. Hard costs of R&D, new compontents, tooling, projected hardware costs at release time (RAM, CPU's, etc.), fabs, yields, taxes, shipping costs, competitors products, etc.

There is a stage of planning that takes all of those variables into consideration, as well as the economy, exchange rates (a huge variable for a transnational company), etc. The more skillful companies are successful over the long term, with multiple products (Toyota.) The less successful suffer incredibly for their errors (RIM Blackberry.)

Every company is a "Brand." Most companies work very, very hard to be known for value, quality, customer service, etc. Most HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL (ie: long term successful) companies are not deceitful or destructive in any way ("lets gouge the customer"), because they know that will damage their "Brand" and be a failing strategy.

The biggest issues for companies like Canon right now are:

1) An incredibly challanging (adverse) global economy, all hitting at the same time, like never before, and

2) A historically very, very strong Yen, that squeezes profits like never before, and makes "Japanese" products (manufactured there, with profits repatriated there) 50% more expensive than they would have been 4 years ago.

This is probably the worst selling environment in history for Canon, Nikon, and others. That is why so many companies have failed (Olympus), or are at risk of failure (Panasonic).

Yesterday the Yen was at 78 on the dollar. In 2008 it was 120. If Canon sold the same 5D2 today for $3,000 as in 2008, they would get in Yen the equivalent of 78/120 = 65% of what they got in 2008, or $1,950 net (equivalent.)

When average Corporate net margins are 12% to 15% maximum (average stock returns) , taking a 35% off the top cut on every sale is HUGE. It is the equivalent of armagedeon for the accountants.

So: No, they don't hate you! They are desperately trying to survive until things improve!

Best,
Michael



Access
Registered: Jun 07, 2004
Total Posts: 1478
Country: United States

mmurph wrote:
Yesterday the Yen was at 78 on the dollar. In 2008 it was 120. If Canon sold the same 5D2 today for $3,000 as in 2008, they would get in Yen the equivalent of 78/120 = 65% of what they got in 2008, or $1,950 net (equivalent.)

This explains the high price well, but not the volatility. Is paying a premium for new camera releases within the first six months or so the 'new normal' among Canon products or among the industry in general?

Am seeing even higher volatility with Olympus and their micro four thirds bodies. Lenses on the other hand, other than the kit lenses or mass-produced entry-level zooms, are much less volatile.



pKai
Registered: Oct 16, 2006
Total Posts: 894
Country: United States

Access wrote:
This explains the high price well, but not the volatility. Is paying a premium for new camera releases within the first six months or so the 'new normal' among Canon products or among the industry in general?



This volatility is cyclical but nothing new. I remember this sort of thing on and off going back to the 1980s when I first got into photography. Hot items would come out and for a while everyone would hold close to list price and then the discounting would begin. Eventually, prices would settle.

It makes sense that Canon would release the 5D3 at say, US$3500... and get all the early adopters. These people are likely to be established successful pros, which look at cost much differently than a consumer, and well-off amateurs that will pay almost anything for the latest widget. After this tide subsides, then the price comes down for "the rest of us" and they get another wave of sales.

Frankly, the trend of the past few years where an item comes out at a price and stays that way is IMHO, the anomaly. I first noticed this with the 70-200 2.8L II which came out at US$2500 and stayed there until very recently. I was expecting it to drop after a few months like many items had been doing and it never did..... Seems like almost all Canon gear that came after around that time followed the same pattern. The above mentioned economic factors could easily account for Canon trying to hold prices up for as long as they can get away with it.

That said, I think Nikon is purposefully underpricing their products to get market share back. They know that, although painful in the short term, this will benefit them in the long run if successful. I was shocked to see the D800 come out as cheap as it did....and then they doubled up on it with the D600, which is somewhat of a bargain at $2k. IMHO, the 5D3 is clearly superior, but is it $1500 better? I've never touched a D600, so IDK, but I suspect that I would be hard-pressed to find $1500's worth of "better" in the 5D3.

I've been shooting Canon for over 2 decades and am deeply invested in "the system", therefore I have no thoughts of jumping ship. For the type of shooting I do, there's nothing besides price that makes Nikon attractive to me and nothing including price that would motivate me to go through the whole PITA of a system change... I must say, however, if I were starting out with zero gear today, Nikon would get a very long and favorable look. Also, If I were a hardcore landscape or studio shooter, I would seriously consider at least adding a D800 and a couple of lenses to my arsenal. Nikon may be onto something here, marketing-wise.



mmurph
Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Total Posts: 3007
Country: United States

Access wrote:
This explains the high price well, but not the volatility. Is paying a premium for new camera releases within the first six months or so the 'new normal' among Canon products or among the industry in general?

Am seeing even higher volatility with Olympus and their micro four thirds bodies...


I think it is a measure of marketplace realities, desperation, and the focus on short term versus long term profits.

I remember in 1995 that Ford wanted the "Number One Best Selling Vehicle" crown for the Taurus, over the Toyota Camry. You could lease a Taurus for $189, $0 down, 0% financing.

Two years later, the Chairman of Ford Credit said "I have a two billion dollar hit to profit" (underperformance) because of the Taurus leases (about 1/3 of profits.)

Ford qwas losing $1,000 to $2,000 on the resale value of each Taurus that came off lease, over what they had "projected" 2 years previously that they could sell the cars for (The cost of a lease is based on New Vehicle Price - Residual Sale Price at lease end.)

Basically, they bought the market share they wanted, then they paid a big price later. In the same way, you could buy a new Dodge Ram V8 Hemi for $13,500 instead of the $23,000+ list, when gas was at $4.75 a gallon and Chrysler was almost bankrupt in 2008.

Every company hopes their product is a winner. That the D800 is a dog, and the 5D3 captures 50% of Nikon pros, etc., without knowing exactly what Nikon will release at the same time.

Every company wants what Toyota had with the Prius - a car that is selling **over** list price, and has a 6 month waiting list because it is so popular. (Welll, actually - they want no wait list because they want to sell as many as they can.)

I know that Ford, for example, uses complex regressioin equations to determine which carpet to put in each vehicle, and how much it should cost them, etc. Sometimes they are just plain wrong, sometimes s*it happens.. Lot's of different pressures on the company at any one time.



ChrisRD
Registered: May 19, 2009
Total Posts: 935
Country: United States

pKai wrote:
I first noticed this with the 70-200 2.8L II which came out at US$2500 and stayed there until very recently. I was expecting it to drop after a few months like many items had been doing and it never did.....


You missed the boat man!

They were $2000 brand new during the winter 2010/11 rebates from all the major Canon dealers (I bought one).



Ghost
Registered: Feb 22, 2005
Total Posts: 2042
Country: Canada

I know a few wedding photographers that bought 2 or 3 of these 5d3s. Me... just one.

For what they deliver, they are great value.



mmurph
Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Total Posts: 3007
Country: United States

pKai wrote:
That said, I think Nikon is purposefully underpricing their products to get market share back. They know that, although painful in the short term, this will benefit them in the long run if successful. .....

I've been shooting Canon for over 2 decades and am deeply invested in "the system", therefore I have no thoughts of jumping ship. ....


Yeah, me too, 100%.

I had a D800E on pre-order, as well as a 5D3 as soon as both were announved.

I decided I didn't want to do the work to sell 14 Canon lenses, learn a whole new systemn, etc. etc. for the marginal value of the D800. Especially during the summer, and with the work I am doing right now.

But they had me interested in Nikon for the first time since 1982, when I had a Nikon FM for 4-5 months ...

The "best" strategy depends on a lot of factors, including corporate goals.

Best,
Michael



gabimaster
Registered: May 25, 2008
Total Posts: 672
Country: Romania

At 2800$ I will buy one and I have the money, but no more.



S Dilworth
Registered: Oct 10, 2011
Total Posts: 484
Country: France

Digital camera prices have always dropped precipitously in the few months after launch.

Compare the price history charts of the 5D Mark III against the D800. There’s not a huge difference there.

It was the same for the 5D Mark II and D700 before them.



1
       2       3       4       end