Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?
/forum/topic/1150855/75

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carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 16163
Country: Germany

Yes, getting the foreground right seems to lose the accuracy in the background. And the detail in the straw is just bizarre, but perhaps this is just the downscaled version?

I should point out that I find these cameras very interesting and promising, and am not trying to bash them in any way. However, they do clearly have issues and limitations, the thing to do is to make sure that they work well with your own workflow and expectations before buying one.

Personally, I would love to try the DP2M or DP3M, but given my workflow preferences, I would not buy one until SPP (or whatever the Sigma software is called) is not needed, and Lightroom could be used to get decent shots. At that point I would probably buy one to try, especially if it is possible to work in a pure B&W raw workflow.



sebboh
Registered: Nov 02, 2009
Total Posts: 12606
Country: United States

carstenw wrote:
Yes, getting the foreground right seems to lose the accuracy in the background.


that's as it should be things at great distance have bluer color than they do up close.



carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 16163
Country: Germany

The cast seems to be more in the direction of magenta though.



Chrissearle
Registered: May 22, 2012
Total Posts: 292
Country: France

Yes, I find it odd that some commentators have raved about the colour fidelity of the Foveon. Obviously the resolution of fine detail is astonishing and that why I love the DP2M ( and will certainly buy a '3' as well), however I do find the magenta/green thing a slight issue. If one were to be striving for absolute colour fidelity then I think these cameras would give some headaches ( possible quite severe ones). Personally it's not an issue for me as I am only after images that please me and, the majority of the time, the DP2M makes me extraordinarily pleasing images.



Tariq Gibran
Registered: Oct 01, 2006
Total Posts: 12901
Country: United States

sebboh wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Wow, I'm surprised it has so much green in it. An easy fix is to take the eye dropper tool (below the WB setting in SPP) and click on an area of the white ship hulls. That will neutralize the bias in the white by adding a fairly significant amount of magenta. Not perfect but maybe better (I used the eyedropper in ACR to do the same):


at 2 miles away the white ship hulls should no longer appear white, so using the eyedropper on them gives a weird look too.


Yeah, it's not a perfectly accurate, one click color balance but I find it more pleasing to see the majority of the image with the closer water and reeds more accurate than the tiny ships in the background (which could quickly be made bluer of course using selective color and adjusting the neutrals in Photoshop if desired). The "one click" rendering does have a magenta cast though.

Color is also very subjective. For instance, I am used to remembering the light being bluer/ higher kelvin in San Fransisco simply because every time I have visited, there is always a sea fog affecting things. On the east cost this time of year, the light is pretty warm/ lower kelvin even at noon, particularly where I am in FL (so whites will not appear as blue as they will in the middle of the summer for instance).



rattymouse
Registered: Feb 04, 2006
Total Posts: 7430
Country: United States

A couple flower shots and a cityscape (4 images stitch).





















veroman
Registered: Aug 19, 2005
Total Posts: 4127
Country: United States

The majority of DP2M images I'm seeing in this thread appear way over-sharpened to my eyes; sharper than real life, in fact. Any number of them exhibit obvious sharpening halos. I have to assume this is the result of over-zealous processing. Come on now ... super-duper-sharpness isn't what matters in a photograph. Not even the very best MF film shots are this sharp.
- Steve



edwinIII
Registered: Apr 15, 2011
Total Posts: 277
Country: United States

carstenw wrote:
Yes, getting the foreground right seems to lose the accuracy in the background. And the detail in the straw is just bizarre, but perhaps this is just the downscaled version?


I noticed that too and have seen it before in long, straight grasses. In SPP I had sharpness at -1 and in LR added a little, 25/.8. I did notice in my jpg export settings there was additional output sharpening. This may have pushed it too far.

Edwin



Tariq Gibran
Registered: Oct 01, 2006
Total Posts: 12901
Country: United States

veroman wrote:
The majority of DP2M images I'm seeing in this thread appear way over-sharpened to my eyes; sharper than real life, in fact. Any number of them exhibit obvious sharpening halos. I have to assume this is the result of over-zealous processing. Come on now ... super-duper-sharpness isn't what matters in a photograph. Not even the very best MF film shots are this sharp.
- Steve


Broken record here...The sharpening in SPP (Sigma's raw software) does some pretty extreme sharpening at default settings so this is again a case of a Sigma default being out of wack. Somewhere between -1 and -2 for SPP would produce a more natural result with less to no over sharpening.



veroman
Registered: Aug 19, 2005
Total Posts: 4127
Country: United States

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Broken record here...

Apparently it needs to be said over and over again 'cause few seem to be listening.
- Steve



Tariq Gibran
Registered: Oct 01, 2006
Total Posts: 12901
Country: United States

veroman wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Broken record here...

Apparently it needs to be said over and over again 'cause few seem to be listening.
- Steve


Probably a case of:

1) Those users who simply use defaults (just like with the canned WB issues).
2) Those users who like the over sharpening and associate it with the foveon "look".



itai195
Registered: Aug 08, 2011
Total Posts: 1358
Country: United States

carstenw wrote:
Personally, I would love to try the DP2M or DP3M, but given my workflow preferences, I would not buy one until SPP (or whatever the Sigma software is called) is not needed, and Lightroom could be used to get decent shots. At that point I would probably buy one to try, especially if it is possible to work in a pure B&W raw workflow.


One thing I will give SPP credit for is that I find its B&W conversions really nice even with basically default settings (except for sharpening of course). For B&W the DP2M/DP3M are pretty much my favorite cameras right now.



carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 16163
Country: Germany

Yes, the B&W images look great!



sculptormic
Registered: Feb 05, 2012
Total Posts: 2582
Country: Netherlands

veroman wrote:
The majority of DP2M images I'm seeing in this thread appear way over-sharpened to my eyes; sharper than real life, in fact. Any number of them exhibit obvious sharpening halos. I have to assume this is the result of over-zealous processing. Come on now ... super-duper-sharpness isn't what matters in a photograph. Not even the very best MF film shots are this sharp.
- Steve



I am wondering about this statement As long there are no halos: can a photo ever be to sharp?
Aren't we discussing the sharpness of lenses all the time.

May be not so for portraits of people/ ladys above let's say 50. That would be very confronting.
(BTW Although Hulyss Bowman makes beautiful portraits with the DP3m, albeit mostly from the young and beautifull.)
But for architectural, flower or landscape/city shots I don't mind sharpness. When I look at these kind of files of my NEX-7 at 100% it looks like there is a veil in front of the detail. Very confusing



itai195
Registered: Aug 08, 2011
Total Posts: 1358
Country: United States

I think that much of the over sharpened impression is due to the way that detail is rendered in foveon images. They're almost unnaturally detailed sometimes. Some people like that, but I find that I actually tend to turn sharpening way down or even remove clarity in LR at times, at least for portraits. The default sharpening in SPP is way too high for many images.



vaflower
Registered: Oct 21, 2012
Total Posts: 149
Country: United States

itai195 wrote:
carstenw wrote:
Personally, I would love to try the DP2M or DP3M, but given my workflow preferences, I would not buy one until SPP (or whatever the Sigma software is called) is not needed, and Lightroom could be used to get decent shots. At that point I would probably buy one to try, especially if it is possible to work in a pure B&W raw workflow.


One thing I will give SPP credit for is that I find its B&W conversions really nice even with basically default settings (except for sharpening of course). For B&W the DP2M/DP3M are pretty much my favorite cameras right now.


Did you use the color mixer in SPP ? I am hopelessly incompetent in that front. How does the color mixer impact a B&W image ?



vaflower
Registered: Oct 21, 2012
Total Posts: 149
Country: United States

veroman wrote:
The majority of DP2M images I'm seeing in this thread appear way over-sharpened to my eyes; sharper than real life, in fact. Any number of them exhibit obvious sharpening halos. I have to assume this is the result of over-zealous processing. Come on now ... super-duper-sharpness isn't what matters in a photograph. Not even the very best MF film shots are this sharp.
- Steve


The default sharpness in SPP should be at -1.5 to -2 which is what I always applies. Still the DP2M images have a natural punch and sharpness beyond normal sharpening. I did use optimal clarity + sharpening with Canon files and they often do not match the punch and details in DP2M images.
So I think the Feveon sensor do contribute something special.



itai195
Registered: Aug 08, 2011
Total Posts: 1358
Country: United States

vaflower wrote:
Did you use the color mixer in SPP ? I am hopelessly incompetent in that front. How does the color mixer impact a B&W image ?


It's akin to applying a digital color filter. If you've used the color filter setting in Silver Efex Pro, it's basically the same idea presented a bit differently. In SPP the main thing I've used it for is to reduce noise in high ISO b&w by applying a mild blue filter. I've gotten nice results up to ISO 800 that way, but I suspect you probably could go even to 1600 if you don't mind a little grain in you b&w.



Chrissearle
Registered: May 22, 2012
Total Posts: 292
Country: France

sculptormic wrote:
veroman wrote:
The majority of DP2M images I'm seeing in this thread appear way over-sharpened to my eyes; sharper than real life, in fact. Any number of them exhibit obvious sharpening halos. I have to assume this is the result of over-zealous processing. Come on now ... super-duper-sharpness isn't what matters in a photograph. Not even the very best MF film shots are this sharp.
- Steve



I am wondering about this statement As long there are no halos: can a photo ever be to sharp?
Aren't we discussing the sharpness of lenses all the time.

May be not so for portraits of people/ ladys above let's say 50. That would be very confronting.
(BTW Although Hulyss Bowman makes beautiful portraits with the DP3m, albeit mostly from the young and beautifull.)
But for architectural, flower or landscape/city shots I don't mind sharpness. When I look at these kind of files of my NEX-7 at 100% it looks like there is a veil in front of the detail. Very confusing


Absolutely! I love the very sharp 'Foveon look' but I hate sharpening artefacts ( which I do see on some photographs from these cameras). As far as I am concerned, as long as there are no halos or other gremlins, I'll settle for the super sharp look over the 'digital mush' that my 5D3 CR2's make from (eg) distant foliage any day.



edwinIII
Registered: Apr 15, 2011
Total Posts: 277
Country: United States

Here is another try. This image is a type of scene I like to photograph, but not meant to be anything special. Just trying to get to know the camera and learn how to best post process. This has WB set to sunlight, color mode at standard, color adjustment at 8Y. Noise reduction turned off. Taken with the DP1M.







100% Crop. Sharpening set at -1 in SPP with no other sharpening applied.







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