Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)
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philip_pj
Registered: Apr 03, 2009
Total Posts: 3106
Country: Australia

You would have to think it will depreciate somewhat over 3-6 months, Tariq, then slow down considerably, and retain value for quite some time. My sense is they have a big lead in this niche they created.

ken knows his stuff yes. In a perverse way Sony and Nikon users are benefiting from Canon being the dominant player - because Adobe must target their output first and foremost, hence the wonderful recovery at both ends possible these days in LR/ACR.

Here is the DxO chart, click on DR:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/833|0/%28brand%29/Sony/%28appareil2%29/795|0/%28brand2%29/Canon/%28appareil3%29/814|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon

What has happened is that Sony (Nikon) caught up in mid-high ISO, but jumped 2.5 stops (or 22%) above at the low end. I really hope Canon do something for their user base, important for alt too, as EF mount is the most suitable.



Tariq Gibran
Registered: Oct 01, 2006
Total Posts: 10846
Country: United States

philip_pj wrote:
You would have to think it will depreciate somewhat over 3-6 months, Tariq, then slow down considerably, and retain value for quite some time. My sense is they have a big lead in this niche they created.


There seems to be a LOT of inventory of RX1's in the states, particularly on Amazon at the moment. "Like New" RX1's through Amazon are just over $2400. New "business to business" price through Sony is $2500. I suspect the price will drop a bit over the next six months, though I don't really expect to see new at 2K.

I agree though, Sony is finally utilizing their traditional consumer electronics strengths in the camera market - innovation, miniaturization, high performance and, at the high end, solid build quality.



Muizen
Registered: Mar 31, 2006
Total Posts: 23
Country: Belgium

Jonas B wrote:
carstenw wrote:
Yes, it feels very nice. Personally I find it too small for shooting comfort, but this is obviously very personal.


Exactly. So I have been eying the RRS grip and L-plate combo. I think that will do it. Of course, that's another USD 200 but the price for the camera and EVF means common sense was left behind way earlier.

Jonas, Carstenw, I added the Gariz half case to my RX1 which has made it far more comfortable to use this small camera.
Harry



wfrank
Registered: Feb 09, 2011
Total Posts: 2971
Country: Sweden

Jonas B wrote:
wfrank wrote:
But perhaps it's just two different sides of the same coin.


I pretty much trust kwalsh (Ken?) on that topic
here.


Thanks, good reading. Special thanks to Ken too.



Sami Ruusunen
Registered: Jul 30, 2010
Total Posts: 703
Country: Finland

Thanks for the comments JochenB & Jonas B,

I need to check that eye-fi SD card, it seems it would work between RX1 <-> iPhone/iPad, the problem might be it lowers the battery life of already weak RX1.

Thanks for the heads-up of the max 1/2000 shutter speed, haven't noticed that.

Luckily this camera has some quirks, I might be able to talk myself out of this afterall. We'll see that in couple of months.



Jonas B
Registered: Jun 05, 2005
Total Posts: 2471
Country: Sweden

Sami, there are pros and cons with everything as you know.

To balance the negative points above we can also add a really useable ISO50 setting to the list. As I understand it the usual known (a la Canon) drawbacks with ISO50 aren't there but instead you get great DR (you can have a look at this at Dx0 mark). That helps with the 1/2000...

...which is caused by the camera by default (and there is no user option as I understood it when handling the camera in the store the other day) works with an electronic first curtain. You get a very quiet camera, and a very fast one! Imaging Resource measures the RX1 as the camera with the shortest shutter lag ever (pre-focused ie waiting for the decisive moment) perhaps with the exception from some really small sensor P&S camera. Indeed, it felt super responsive.

But then again; here is another surprise; I didn't find any DOF control button. Maybe there is a way but I guess we have to go by experience and checking the image after taking it.

OTOH, looking at the images back home (I brought a SD card to the store), along with some other raw images from the Net, is convincing. From that small and cute little thing?! But you know that already... and I have a feeling I know where this will end.



joanlvh
Registered: Oct 19, 2008
Total Posts: 1419
Country: United States

I of course see the DOF or lack of it that I get with using the camera at f2, is there anyway to know what aperture with a 35mm lens and an aspc camera would be needed to see about the same DOF or lack of ?? thank you , joanlvh

hope the question makes sense



carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 15971
Country: Germany

Jochenb wrote:
1/2000 shutter speed wide open can indeed be annoying. I always have a ND filter with me. Don't know the technical reason.


It is a leaf shutter, isn't it? They need to move extremely fast to avoid uneven exposure from edge to centre, and probably twice per exposure too, instead of just having a second one doing the closing. No, wait, three times. Close, start the sensor, open, close. I suppose it is just the required speed and accuracy of what is essentially an extra aperture which makes this so hard, especially on fast lenses with large travel distances.



Jonas B
Registered: Jun 05, 2005
Total Posts: 2471
Country: Sweden

I see, a leaf shutter explains it. It was hard to hear the shutter in the store because of the noise there. It's a real P&S then with artificial shutter sounds and all?
Thank you Carsten.



carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 15971
Country: Germany

Thinking more about it, for reliability reasons, there is probably a maximum travel speed, and so there would be a very hard limit on how fast the fastest shutter speed can be wide open, simply because the shutter does need to get all the way to the edge, and then get ready and move back to closed again. Then there is the additional aesthetic constraint that if the "resting" time between open and close is too short, the shutter would add noticeable vignetting to the shot, and possibly other optical effects, since leaf shutters are often star shaped, not round. The open time needs to dominate, especially if the lens is meant to have calm rendering, like the RX1 lens.



Grenache
Registered: Dec 18, 2008
Total Posts: 1940
Country: United States

I saw no difference what so ever in DR with RX1 and 5D2 when shooting scenes that exceded the dynamic range of the cameras (how else would one test, right?). What I did see was that the RX1 had a MUCH more natural looking contrast curve applied to scaling the brightness and contrast of the image. The shadows were lifted and the highlights were quite rich. Same can be achieved with 5D2, but you have to make the curve yourself; whereas, the RX1 was more or less good to go.

RX1 had truer colors for all but reds and yellows SOOC.

Lens is indeed nice. In style, somewhere in between the ZE 35/2 and 35/1.4, leaning more towards the latter (less in your face contrast but not quite the lovely bokeh of the 1.4).

In terms of ergonomics, I found it okay but a little small to shoot with, but the real issue for me was carrying it. Sort of too small yet not flat, so I had a hard time figuring out how to carry it between shots without planting my index finger on the lens.

Liked it a lot, but not $2,500 a lot. If it were $1,500, it would be a no-brainer.

Just my pennies,
Jim



mortyb
Registered: Feb 15, 2009
Total Posts: 1366
Country: Norway

Grenache wrote:
Liked it a lot, but not $2,500 a lot. If it were $1,500, it would be a no-brainer.


Come to Norway and you can buy it for $4,170



Jochenb
Registered: May 25, 2010
Total Posts: 1826
Country: Belgium

Grenache wrote:
I saw no difference what so ever in DR with RX1 and 5D2 when shooting scenes that exceded the dynamic range of the cameras (how else would one test, right?). What I did see was that the RX1 had a MUCH more natural looking contrast curve applied to scaling the brightness and contrast of the image. The shadows were lifted and the highlights were quite rich. Same can be achieved with 5D2, but you have to make the curve yourself; whereas, the RX1 was more or less good to go.


Sorry, but I don't agree. You say shooting scenes that exceed the dynamic range of both cameras... well, with the Canon you"ll exceed that dynamic range sooner. The RX1 has about 2 stops more headroom and it shows. When you exceed the DR of both, you'll still be able to get more detail out of the RX1 files because of this.



Jonas B
Registered: Jun 05, 2005
Total Posts: 2471
Country: Sweden

I feel a bit stupid about my speculations about an "electronic first curtain".

A second check at the store confirmed what Carsten said; the shutter is a leaf shutter so the limitations above are fully explained. With less people in the store I also learned that said leaf shutter is as silent as can be expected. Some experimenting also showed we can get flash sync times down to 1/2000 sometimes, 1/1000 no problems. I believe anyone interested should experiment with their own camera and flash at different aperture stops. Great.

About the missing DOF control button.... it isn't needed as the camera always sets the aperture blades to their working position, it's like having the DOF button pressed all the time. Great!

The shutter lag is really down to zero. Great. And that is true also when having the image enlarged in the viewfinder.

All this made me dizzy enough to buy the darn thing. I now again have a camera, and what an interesting little machine it is.



mortyb
Registered: Feb 15, 2009
Total Posts: 1366
Country: Norway

Hehe. Congrats!



carstenw
Registered: Dec 26, 2005
Total Posts: 15971
Country: Germany

Jonas B wrote:
I feel a bit stupid about my speculations about an "electronic first curtain".

A second check at the store confirmed what Carsten said; the shutter is a leaf shutter so the limitations above are fully explained. With less people in the store I also learned that said leaf shutter is as silent as can be expected. Some experimenting also showed we can get flash sync times down to 1/2000 sometimes, 1/1000 no problems. I believe anyone interested should experiment with their own camera and flash at different aperture stops. Great.

About the missing DOF control button.... it isn't needed as the camera always sets the aperture blades to their working position, it's like having the DOF button pressed all the time. Great!

The shutter lag is really down to zero. Great. And that is true also when having the image enlarged in the viewfinder.

All this made me dizzy enough to buy the darn thing. I now again have a camera, and what an interesting little machine it is.




Well, post your thoughts when you have used it a bit. I am still waiting for the used prices to go below 2000 Euro with the EVF



Jochenb
Registered: May 25, 2010
Total Posts: 1826
Country: Belgium

congrats Jonas



philip_pj
Registered: Apr 03, 2009
Total Posts: 3106
Country: Australia

Jonas, few people ever get to experience how good life with a camera gets with a leaf shutter - on 'better' cameras if that term has not been outlawed yet.

It was a long time before I had other than a leaf shutter on my cameras: Hexar AF, Fuji GA645 and Fuji GA645zi, Fuji GW690 Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7. The tiniest snick, no vibration, virtually inaudible sound, long life (except the big Fuji was badly implemented). The D200 and a900 were major disappointments in this respect, I thought they would jump out my grip at times, you have to overcome an involuntary urge to flinch with badly behaved shutters.

Now life is good again with the first curtain 'mirrorless' (and very decent sound level) shutter on the a99; and the RX1. This factor might just have been what pushed me over the edge in fact, as I saw a youtube video of the RX1 shutter sound - sublime.

It may be that the early doubts some had about distant IQ for the RX1 were due to users working handheld, and of course distant small detail is the master punisher of sub-optimal technique. Tim Ashley sure put that one out the door and into the bin.

On used prices, there are a lot of people the camera will not suit, so there will be plenty around, and sellers will be keen to recoup their big payout, that might mean better prices soon.



tulaev
Registered: Nov 17, 2012
Total Posts: 92
Country: Russia

Sony RX1 v Leica M 240:
http://tobinators.com/blog/index.php/2013/04/everything-else/sony-rx1-v-leica-m-240/



philip_pj
Registered: Apr 03, 2009
Total Posts: 3106
Country: Australia

Grenache, a lot of users will add something to get a grip on the small body, even a QR plate helps, the Gariz canse is a big assistance in texture and esp the bottom plate, also it is quite comfortable to use with two hands, I find.
To carry, I use a trad camera neck strap or belt bag.

I wish the aperture gnurling was more where my hand falls. And it has a superfluous control dial (!) for me, as I shoot A mode and 'trade off' s/s and ISO.



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