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Mystik
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Re: First Sony Impression


sungphoto wrote:

Telling a client that "oh well you see, I'm using an exposing to the right shooting technique and that's why the frames you're seeing are almost completely dark, but once I get a chance to post--process the 2000 photos from this shoot I'll send you proofs" absolutely will not work. It's not good business and yes it absolutely does matter how you shoot the images in that instance. Training yourself to shoot like this is a technological crutch, and once you actually start to make money shooting it starts to become unsustainable.

Mystik wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
Try your "method" while you have a client looking at your tethered images on a nice big monitor.

It's a great way to never get booked again by an agency

Mystik wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
Again, for your personal work that's great, and my opinion doesn't matter.

From a professional standpoint, there are exceptions but generally you won't see anyone that makes a living with their work doing what you do (on a regular basis to make images).

Mystik wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
Eh difference of opinion on proper photographic technique. You could have made that photo with a much less capable camera, but I suppose Iím so close minded that I donít understand the need to retain highlight detail in a completely out of focus background

Frogfish wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
chez wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
chez wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
chez wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
Or you could find and see the light (I mean isnít that one of our biggest pursuits?), donít shoot at noon on a bright sunny day, frame and compose differently so you donít have to lean on post processing as heavily.

If you havenít heard of him, an amazing Sony shooter, Ira Block has some great tips on proper composition and finding the right light in conditions like yours. I was privileged to see the images from his soon to be released book a couple years ago, printed large, and you rarely see massively high contrast in his work

chez wrote:
sungphoto wrote:
philip_pj wrote:
Just dealing with the statement and reasonable implications to be drawn from it, readers see your quote at the page top.

I think what it is, is that you and a lot of Canonistas quite reasonably figure that IF you work around the (older) Canon sensors' - shall we say - shortcomings with flash, assistants etc, all is well, and that is the trad event pro take on things. I simply want to indicate that (i) many people need to lift shadows in the course of their very different work, and (ii) the market leader has fallen badly behind the newcomer and that makes a serious difference to the end result for these folks. And how about that ISO invariance, how good is that? I never rated ETTR highly, O/E too risky and flaky highlights afterwards.

If you are the market leader, people form certain expectations of high performance. Reputations are built over years and decades, and lost in a very short period, and that is what is happening to Canon - they grew very complacent, with old sensor tech and an ancient prime lens range. Given lead times it's a slide that is hard to arrest. Then, their Mickey Mouse effort at MILC thus far. It might fool the uninformed consumer demographic for a while, but not people here. The company might yet rise phoenix-like, but who'd put money on it?


Huh? I own Canon, Sony and Fuji. I shot with primarily Sony gear professionally for a couple years before I switch back to Canon for my professional kit, and have put hundreds of thousands of frames through them.

Striving to get it right in camera isn't working around any specific camera's shortcomings, it's a business requirement. Saying that I'm suggesting using some sort of reflector, strobe, etc to get a proper exposure in camera rather than spending an hour in post dodging and burning a single image is in my opinion being a good photographer, rather than an excellent photoshopper. But apparently we have a difference in opinion on that.


Not different opinions...but maybe different photo conditions. There are many situations where you CANNOT stage a shoot with assistants holding reflectors in your efforts to "get it right in the camera". I'm going to be wandering the tight streets of Fes where I won't have anything with me but a camera. The bright sun with deep shadows in those streets will be challenging and you bet I'll need to lift shadows in post...no two ways around it. Won't have an assistant with me to bail out my camera.



You have no idea do you? Your entire photo experience has been artificial, ( assistants, reflectors, fill flash )...that's ok, but please don't go about spouting off to shoot only when you have good light. There are amazing photos to be taken with harsh light and shadows adding drama to the image. I understand you shooting Canon stay away from these scenes as they blow out the sensor, but I can definitely say you are missing out on great dramatic street images ( as life does continue to happen when the sun is high in the sky ) by shying away from midday.


You've found me out. I always walk around with a couple c-stands with strobes and a floppy when I'm taking photos of my nieces or a street scene in NY at high noon in natural light. It makes my camera bag a little big, but hey apparently my entire photo experience has been artificial.


Ok...you are right. The expanded dynamic range cameras are just for whoosies. "REAL" photographers either have an assistant to help control the light, or they make like a vampire and only shoot in nice light.



It's a difference of opinion for sure and I never said the only way to deal with high contrast scenes is to use off camera lights and reflectors etc (though for me acting solo I can set up a strobe on location and set my exposure extremely quickly). It's one way to skin a cat - I'd prefer to use natural light, and find good light (which yes is still quite possible in even challenging conditions). I personally don't think it's a good idea to depend on pushing a file by 4 stops and shadows by 100+ on a regular basis, even on a camera that is capable of doing it. Just like I wouldn't jam on brakes with 40 feet from a wall knowing my car's braking distance at extremes is 40 feet. Getting it right in camera is the best route for me, and yes using better dynamic range where needed but if it's going to require a lot more time in post processing I bill the client for it. If your "creative approach" is to under-expose files by 4 stops on a regular basis, and then spend an hour on each photo dodging and burning it, that's fine if it's your personal work but you're going to have a hard time scaling that into a business. If that's not your aim, that's fine - but I'd rather spend more time behind a camera than in front of a computer.


Well I see a difference right off the bat. You look for good light where you can take your staged portraits. I look to where the action is and deal with the light that is given to me. That to me is a fundamental difference in our approaches. You stage your photos, I take spontaneous photos.

As far as taking time in post, not a chance. Quick adjustments is all that is really required. In fact I had to take much longer with my Canon images to deal with noise in the shadows and colour banding issues.


Ira Block just posted some stuff from Fez today. Somehow he took a street photo there in the apparently impossible light. Still this is Ira Block


Not sure what your obsession with Ira Block is all about but not everyone rates him as highly as you do. Like most photographers he's hit and miss (IMHO) and yes I have him and many others on Instagram so see their work as soon as posted.

I'm not sure which Fez(Fes) shot you're referring to but on Instagram he has a medina shot of a woman strolling down the street (severely blown highlights), a shot over the medina from a rooftop, a Jemaa el-Fnaa shot from Marrakech or of course you may be talking about one of the many posed shots ?

Prefer my own to be honest (thedragonsfather). There's nothing special on his FB or Instagram timelines.

As for your arguments re. the Sony vs Canon sensors, all I'm seeing is confirmation bias rather than facts. People need to convince themselves that their decisions (in your case to drop Sony and return to Canon) are correct.

There are still valid reasons to switch systems, in either direction, it depends what you require from your gear/service, however arguing against what can be done with the Sony sensor in favour of (or simply as an alternative to) workarounds on Canon's isn't one of them, IMO.

BTW I still use Nikon for sports and birds and wouldn't change except if challenged by airline weight restrictions or having to hike for days with the heft of my Nikons.



I'm not saying it couldn't be made with a lesser camera, but it would involve a need for external lighting which I did not need to use. Photography is a creative process......there is no such thing as proper or improper technique as long as you can create the photo as intended....and the ETTR method can work just as well as lugging a bunch of lighting equipment around. You keep insisting that underexposing a shot in camera is somehow improper technique, and yes that is closed minded.

And tonal detail does matter to me when it comes to out of focus areas...if I wanted to shoot my subject without any context in the background, I would shoot in the studio. You throw the background out of focus to center the attention of the photo on your subject, but the details in the background are still important to provide context. And big blotches of overexposed white in the background not only do not provide context, they distract from the subject.




Oh please get of your "professional photographer" high horse. No one cares about what methods we used to create a photo so long as they are happy with the end result.




Eh the only time I shoot tethered is in studio where ETTR doesn't apply. For outdoor shoots, yes I show clients the images on the back of the camera all of the time so they can preview, and no its never an issue because people in this day and age understand that there is a digital post processing phase that happens before the final product is delivered.




So you're basically saying that what you shoot in camera is representative of the final product you're delivering to the client? If that's true, I hope you realize that in this day in age that is not true of most modern day professional photography. It may be true for you, but for many of the rest of us it is not.

Basically everything I shoot requires some level of post processing, and pushing the exposure is probably the least of the things I do in post. And no not everything is underexposed by 4 stops....that's actually an extreme case to show the extent of what is possible and it's most regularly at around -2EV. Either way, what I show a client in the field or whatever raw files I send to a client when requested is not representative of the final deliverable and they understand that.



Oct 06, 2017 at 11:49 PM





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