fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Archive 2004 · UV Filters

  
 
WWWiles
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · UV Filters


I've always bought a B+W UV filter for each of my lenses. My thought was it would protect the front element and be easier to clean, without appreciable loss of image quality.

My equipment list is now my former equipment list, all having been recently stolen. In replacing equipment I have begun to question using the filter.

What are the pros & cons? Does use of the filter degrade the image to any noticeable degree? B+W has a multi-coated filter for more money. Is it worth the additional money?



Feb 20, 2004 at 02:28 PM
ozziegn
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · UV Filters


Hi Bill, first off, welcome to the forums.

Its funny that this subject came up because me and my local camera shop guys were just talking about this yesterday when I was in their shop looking for a UV filter for my brand new 24-70 f2.8L lens I just bought.

I asked the guys the differences between the "cheepies" and the good ones and basically he told me the better ones are either multi-coated and/or some have better optics than others. for example, they had three UV filters that I had to choose from. the first one was their $24.95 "house brand" (not that good at all) that was more or else a piece of round glass. then, their two higher end UV filters were either the B+W brand was single coated but the guy told me it had better optics than the other brand that they had which was the Hoya filters.

but, he did say that even though the optics on the Hoya filters wasnt exactly (but damn near) as close to the B+W filters, he did say that he would rather use the Hoya because it was multi coated. so in the end, I took his advice and took the Hoya over the B+W.

now, some people will say that all UV filters are crap and they shouldnt be used on higher end L glass but I dont share that attitude because I'd rather loose a smudge of pic quality knowing that I have something in between a flyin pebble and my $1500 piece of glass rather than just air. but then again, I'm just a newbie photographer so what do I know?



Feb 20, 2004 at 04:05 PM
gurtch
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · UV Filters


Bill:
I also keep UV filters on all my lenses because my specialty (passion??) is seascape photography, where there is fine sand and salt spray. When I was using Contax equipment, I used nothing but expensive Contax multi-coated filters. I'm now using Canon stuff, and although a few lenses have the same filter size as some of my Contax filters, most are different. I am now using either Canon or Tiffen UVs and Polarizers (both rasther inexpensive). If there is a difference, I can't see it in prints up to 20"x30". In fact, I photograph birds at my feeder through double pane windows (with UV still on), and the results look sharp to me. I would really like to see someone do a side by side test with a cheapie filter, and an expensive one, to see if there really is a difference.
Regards
Dave G.
www.modernpictorials.com



Feb 20, 2004 at 04:24 PM
teriba
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · UV Filters


I use Hoya Super HMC on all of my lenses. I find it's only a marginal loss in quality for a huge gain in durability and ease of cleaning.


Feb 20, 2004 at 04:33 PM
Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · UV Filters


Two high end UV filters = the price of one lens repair. If you somehow manage to damage a filter and save your lens, you will need to buy another filter to replace the broken one. So unless you plan on breaking all your lenses, there is no point to using UV filters. Instead of putting this money into thin glass filters that will decrease contrast and increase flare, get yourself an insurance policy for your gear. A UV filter will not fight off a theif. A UV filter will not pay for your gear when you accidentally drop it in a river, and a UV filter will not protect your camera from a drop onto a hard surface (it might in fact make the situation worse by shattering, and scratching the front element with sharp glass). Do the math..... UV filters just don't make sense. They are a high markup accessory that camera stores love to sell. It is kind of funny because I went to a local camera shop today to pick up some misc gear, and I heard the person behind the counter trying to sell UV filters to two different people.

Edited by Ben Horne on Feb 20, 2004 at 09:47 PM GMT



Feb 20, 2004 at 04:45 PM
Obake_
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · UV Filters


I understand both camps of thought. UV is there to protect, but it can degrade image quality. Thats why i only use it when i KNOW its going to get dirty, eg sea side, outdoor car shows, etc. If i plan on going to indoor car shows or studio work i don't bother with a UV.


Feb 20, 2004 at 04:46 PM
Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · UV Filters


Obake_ wrote:
I understand both camps of thought. UV is there to protect, but it can degrade image quality. Thats why i only use it when i KNOW its going to get dirty, eg sea side, outdoor car shows, etc. If i plan on going to indoor car shows or studio work i don't bother with a UV.


You hit the nail on the head. Use these filters when you actually need the protection.... and take them off when you don't. It seems like most non-pro shooters baby their gear way too much. Some L lenses need a filter to be totally weather proof (ie: 16-35mm), but if there is not a threat of gravel or water flying at you, take that puppy off.



Feb 20, 2004 at 04:50 PM
WWWiles
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · UV Filters


Thanks for the input. I'll probably buy one filter for each size needed and use it only when there's a specific need to protect the lens. By swapping between lenses I'll cut the total cost and put it into multi-coated filters.


Feb 20, 2004 at 05:47 PM
ozziegn
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · UV Filters


Ben Horne wrote:
A UV filter will not fight off a theif.

A UV filter will not pay for your gear when you accidentally drop it in a river,

and a UV filter will not protect your camera from a drop onto a hard surface (it might in fact make the situation worse by shattering, and scratching the front element with sharp glass).


right BUT a UV filter WILL:

1. protect the lens from any flying devris that more than likely will harm the coating on my $1500 L glass lens.

2. protect my lens when I'm shooting NHRA/NASCAR events where there's oil and raw fuel being shot up in the air which does get on my lens which COULD damage the coating, AGAIN, on my $1500 L glass lens.

3. protect my lens when I'm shooting flying aircraft like helicopters and such and AGAIN, something could very well be shot on the front of my lens causing damage to the coating.

-So, this is a never ending debate which will never be won by one certain party. if you think UV filters are junk and degrade your pics, then by all means ditch 'em and take a chance. but if you're like me and cant afford to replace that special $1500 lens from something that could very much well harm the lens, then by all means get a filter and have some piece of mind.



Feb 20, 2004 at 06:23 PM
Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · UV Filters


In those situations, a filter can be handy. However, that's what I said in my last post. I was addressing the issue of the average consumer buying filters for all their lenses and using them at ALL times even when you don't have gravel etc being tossed at your lens.


Feb 20, 2004 at 07:04 PM
jray
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · UV Filters


Hmm... it's this thread again

I have heard all the "Filters degrade your images", and "Don't worry about the scratch on your front element, it won't affect the image." statements time and time again. Well if a scratch on the front element can't be detected in the final image, then I would imagine a piece of ruler flat optical glass shouldn't cause too much of a problem. OK, perhaps a bit of additional flare from time to time, but how much? I've done a few tests to see just how much UV filters really affect image quality, but I still have additional tests to perform before I come to any firm conclusions. In particular I have not been able to test for flare problems since it's been overcast and raining in my area for the past week .

Below are a few of the test sets I've done so far. They are performed using no filter, and then with a stack of 4 filters to compound any image degradation so it can be more easily detected. One of the filters is a Kenko MC UV filter which is a Hoya HMC filter (not super HMC), and the other three are S+W no-name UV filters ($8.50 each for 77mm). These are from a few projects I am currently working on. I would also like to compare 5 stacked UV filters of the types; Hoya Super HMC, B+W MRC, and Heliopan SH-PMC, but unless I can convince a filter reseller to loan me some, I don't foresee these tests happening very soon. I have Hoya Super HMC filters on my lenses, 3 of which are 77mm, but that's it. I want to test no less than 5 stacked when testing high quality filters.

Anyway, here are images from test set 1 and 3. I'll place more on a web page as soon as the weather and my schedule agree. Note: Images were critically focused using an Angle Finder 'C' at the 2.5x position.

http://www.d30.info/tests/uv_filters/filters_s1.jpg

http://www.d30.info/tests/uv_filters/filters_s3.jpg

The way it looks to me is the primary image degradation is due to a slight contrast reduction, and a bit of color shift, which may or may not be evident when testing with high quality filters. For those whose seem to see wider edges in the tests with filters, make sure you count the number of pixels across a edge band. You'll see that the number is the same for both in almost all cases. It's the contrast difference that seems to create this effect, and remember, three of these filters are the cheapest non-coated filters I could find. I don't imagine that even these would cause much problem when used one at a time. I won't really know until I can conduct more tests.

As a last point... I get all kinds of crap on the front of my lenses (actually filters) when crawling around in wet grass, splashing through marshes and bogs, getting hit by flying mud and small rocks at Motocross events, etc. The last thing I want to do is open up my bag, or sit up to get in my vest to get lens cleaner, or stop shooting long enough to do so at events. I just use the tip of my tee-shirt or other soft rag and get on with things. Life's too short, and I can always buy a new filter if I scratch it. If not, I can move most of my filters to future lenses I purchase. In addition, I don't have a problem with removing an extremely grimy filter and dunking it into a small pan of water to soften any crap that gets into the crevices. I wouldn't want to do this this with any of my lenses.

Anyway, just my 2000 cents...


Edited by jray on Mar 01, 2004 at 08:14 AM GMT



Feb 20, 2004 at 07:15 PM
Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · UV Filters


Point that camera with a single filter at any bright light source (downtown skyline at night, bright object during the day, etc), and you'll get all kinds of crazy internal reflections. IMO, that's the most common effect of protective filters That's not my gripe about them though. As I stated above, my gripe is that they are a waste of money, and not needed to begin wtih. If you're paying $80 a filter for 4 different lenses, you've just spent $320 on protective filters!!! That is a LOT of money! If you ever somehow manage to damage your lens (VERY unlikely) It will cost you probably $160 or so for a repair. The root of my position is that you will actually save money by scratching your front element without filters than if you put filters on all your lenses.


Feb 20, 2004 at 07:38 PM
jray
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · UV Filters


Ben, I would agree about the cost at $80.00 apiece, but I spend less that $45.00 for 77mm Hoya Super HMC filters and that's part of my point. I hope to show, if possible, that there is not enough a difference between high quality UV filters to bother spending $80.00 or more apiece for them. As far as pointing the lens to obtain direct sun or reflected flair, there's no doubt I would get tons of reflections, but the filters are designed to be used one at a time. My only reason for stacking them it to determine the visible amount of reduction in sharpness if any. If five high quality filters stacked does not reduce sharpness to any degree, then there is no reason to assume that one filter would have any effect that is measurable by anything other than high end optical test equipment.

IMO the results above seem to bear out that even cheap non-coated filters have a minimal effect on sharpness, so there's no reason to assume that high quality multi-coated filters would not fair far better, especially regarding any contrast reduction. Once again, I need access to such filters to perform these tests.



Feb 20, 2004 at 08:05 PM
rextilleon
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · UV Filters


Has anyone ever done a blind test to see if a pro can tell the difference between to photos with all the variables being equal accept for the use of a UV filter---In my mind it would be very hard to tell the difference.


Feb 20, 2004 at 10:08 PM
bouch
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · UV Filters


rextilleon wrote:
Has anyone ever done a blind test to see if a pro can tell the difference between to photos with all the variables being equal accept for the use of a UV filter---In my mind it would be very hard to tell the difference.



Not if you get tons of flare & ghosting because of your filter. That makes it very easy to tell.



Feb 20, 2004 at 10:18 PM
Mark Booth
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · UV Filters


A friend dropped (4 foot drop) his 100-400 in October and it landed on the edge of the attached UV filter. The filter shattered and the filter's ring was crushed in on that side. The lens, however, escaped any damage whatsoever. A new filter and he was good to go. There is no doubt that the filter saved possibly serious damage to the lens.

I know.. I know... YOU wouldn't be the careless. Hogwash. This guy is what I would call overly cautious with his gear. It was strictly an accident and it can just as easily happen to any of us.

Mark



Feb 21, 2004 at 02:12 AM
Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · UV Filters


Mark Booth wrote:
A friend dropped (4 foot drop) his 100-400 in October and it landed on the edge of the attached UV filter. The filter shattered and the filter's ring was crushed in on that side. The lens, however, escaped any damage whatsoever. A new filter and he was good to go. There is no doubt that the filter saved possibly serious damage to the lens.

I know.. I know... YOU wouldn't be the careless. Hogwash. This guy is what I would call overly cautious with his gear. It was strictly an accident and it can just as easily happen to any
...Show more

That is what hoods are for. A hood would have given better protection in a fall like that since the plastic will flex and absorb the shock. Plus there isn't the chance that shards of the UV filter will scratch the front element.



Feb 21, 2004 at 01:04 PM
Michael-M
Offline
• • • •
[X]
p.1 #18 · UV Filters


Ben has been right about this subject throughout the entire thread...........there is NO advantage to using a UV filter other than keeping the maintanence (cleaning) down to a minimum when using a lens in an unfriendly environment.




Feb 21, 2004 at 01:09 PM
Willem W
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · UV Filters


Ben,
would you care to comment the test found in http://www.orchideen-kartierung.de/Macro100E.html.
This is a comparison between macro's. Much to my surprise the author showed a big improvement in sharpness when using a Leica Apochromat. Is this something which happens with macro's only, or would there be a real benefit in using such a filter for other lenses too?



Mar 01, 2004 at 02:34 PM
dnadrifter
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · UV Filters


I have read this thread and many others like it and issues such as price, internal reflections, hoods, sand and salt spray, image degradation to L-glass, etc. always come up. As a rookie photographer I understand all these points and arguements.

What I rarely see addressed though is how likely is it that the front element will get scratched, (even if they are very small) by routine cleaning under normal shooting conditions (not at a sand dune). To me, again I am a beginner, I am wary of routinely cleaning of the front element knowing that there is dust, minute grime, and potential scratching agents on the lense that I am going to clean off.

I have had very reputable, and long existing camera store tell me that every time you clean a lense you could be putting small fine micro scratches in it and that is good reason to buy a filter. (I know, I know they have something to gain from selling me one...but that doesn't by itself make them wrong.)

If you go up to a car with a new paint job with a small amount of dust on it and run your fingers across it you will see scratches in the paint caused by the dust. Now there is a HUGE difference between paint and glass I know, but it illustrates the point.

What does everybody think....what is the potential to scratch an element by simple routine cleaning.



Mar 01, 2004 at 03:52 PM
       2       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account