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  Moon shooting... what equipment next? (archived topic)  
VanIsle
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icon Moon shooting... what equipment next?


I enjoy doing landscape photography where the moon is incorporated in the image. Dont get me wrong, there are lots of times where I use my 70-200 for a wider view, but this post is about where to go next for getting an even bigger moon in my frame.

Currently I use a 1D2, and 400/5.6 prime, with 1.4xTC when I need the reach. Of course it is great because I can still AF.

Basically, Canon's 500/4 or 4.5 are out of budget range, so I am considering

a) buy an Xti for its extra reach. The downside here is that I wont be able to AF. Manual focus is fine, but I am concerned that the xti viewfinder is dim to begin with... so how will it be at f/8? Will I still be able to achieve *critical* focus (I say this, because of course I want to be able to catch as much crater detail as possible) by using manual focus and f/8? I am particularily concerned about shots where the moon is a very thin crescent.

b) buy a 2x converter. But again I lose AF. And though the 1D2 vf is quite bright, im sure f/11 won't be so much fun. Also, I know from experiece, that f/8 I am already strating to push my limites for a short enough shutter speed (particularily when a full moon rises at sunset, and is not very bright at all) at an acceptable ISO... going to f/11 , and then stopping down because the 2X will be a bit soft... I worry about shutter speeds.

any great ideas??

I had also pondered the Sigma 50-500 .. but again, wont be able to af once I add my 1.4x, and I worry about the sharpness of it at 500 to begin with (let alone with converter)

tia

jeremy

edited to add: for point of interest ... how much might I find a 500/4.5 for on the used market?


Apr 20, 2007 at 11:06 PM
suchs

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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


I think the XTI is a good idea. On the cheap the bigma with a 2x should work nicely. That will give you a FL of 1000mm. Really tho you want even more. I regularly use 1600mm and think thats not even enough.


Without a german equatorial mount with tracking, that is using a regular tripod, you can get away with around 1/40th of a second. Much slower than that and the earths rotation will blur your picture.

For most of my work I go around iso400 f/18 1/60th depending on the fullness of the moon. Mirror lockup YES. :) And wait until the vibrations stop.

I have a few moon shots here.





Apr 20, 2007 at 11:18 PM
Grant808
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


Hello, fellow 'lunatic' :)

My first (and cheapest) suggestion would be to try a Kenko Pro 300 1.4x behind your 400/5.6 and Canon 1.4x. with your 1D2 first. It should still AF without any tricks or tape on bright subjects like the moon.

Grant


Apr 20, 2007 at 11:23 PM
VanIsle
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


Thanks Pete.... some really nice shots you linked

Im worried about how the IQ of my 400 prime will hold up with a 2x... putting it on the bigma scares me to be honest.

Actually, for my purposes, even 1000mm is more than I need. As I mentioned, I like to keep some landscape in my scenes... so after a point the moon will be so big, theres no room left :)

I did some critical testing at one point, and modified the traditional 'rule of thumb' (for having no motion blur) so that I try and keep my shutter speed to be a minimum of 87.5/focal length (for 1.3 crop bodies)
So at 400mm i can get away with 1/5s
at 560mm (400 with 1.4) 1/8s
I have viewed 400% crops to get here... I can probably go a little slower.. the numbers err on the side of caution. (i imagine your even faster ss is a result of the longer focal lengths youre using).

heres a few...



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This image is copyrighted by the owner






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Apr 20, 2007 at 11:34 PM
VanIsle
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


not a bad idea grant... I hadnt thought of doubling up on the 1.4 TC's

Apr 20, 2007 at 11:37 PM
suchs

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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


#2 is awesome, Jeremy!

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:02 AM
jcolwell
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


Beautiful shots. Here's a few that I took in March while at sea from the bridge of a moving ship.

Edited by jcolwell on Apr 21, 2007 at 05:13 AM GMT


Apr 21, 2007 at 01:10 AM
jcolwell
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


...and

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:11 AM
jcolwell
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..and the eclipse.

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:14 AM
jcolwell
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P.S. an EF 500/4.5 goes for about $3500 (Lens price database, Lens$db), and a Nikon Nikkor 400/3.5*ED IF MF is about $1300.

OTOH, you could use a shorter and faster lens if you could get closer...


Apr 21, 2007 at 01:17 AM
jcolwell
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...and here's a 300/4 L IS + 2x Extender on tripod on my deck (not at sea).

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:40 AM
Grant808
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


Setting in the AM:

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:56 AM
Grant808
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A little noisy:

Apr 21, 2007 at 01:58 AM
BennyR
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Nice shots guys.

I wouldn't be too afraid of the 2X TC. I think it gets a bad rap. This is just with the 400/5.6L and 2X and cropped a bit. It's also from near sea level through a bit of haze.



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Edited by BennyR on Apr 20, 2007 at 06:12 PM GMT


Apr 21, 2007 at 02:11 AM
Grant808
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Using the stacked 1.4x converters on the 200/2.8:

Apr 21, 2007 at 02:12 AM
Benny L
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I will be taking delivery of a Meade 14 inch LX200R scope next week

Apr 21, 2007 at 02:30 AM
Benny L
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My 10 inch has a focal lenght of 2500mm which will give me a result similar to BennyR's first cropped shot, on a 1Ds Mkii

Apr 21, 2007 at 02:38 AM
Tom_W
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


The 400/5.6 with a 2X teleconverter will force you to manually focus. But that task is much easier on the 1DII than it would be on the 350D/400D body with its very small viewfinder.

Alternatively, a 300/4 with a 2X will AF on the 1D2, and if you stack the Canon 2X and 1.4X (Mk II versions), the camera will still auto-focus because the second teleconverter doesn't register its presence in the AF system. The focusing will be a bit spotty with the f/11 combination, though.

The 5D seems to like the 400/2.8, 2X, and 1.4X stacked.....



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Apr 21, 2007 at 02:43 AM
Volleybob
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Photoshop and any of the images above.

Apr 21, 2007 at 04:15 AM
UCSB
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


You can use Canon's (or a cheaper third party) angle finder on the XTi with 2x magnification to assist with focus.

Apr 21, 2007 at 05:09 AM
chuckh
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


BennyR wrote:
Nice shots guys.

I wouldn't be too afraid of the 2X TC. I think it gets a bad rap. This is just with the 400/5.6L and 2X and cropped a bit. It's also from near sea level through a bit of haze.



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Edited by BennyR on Apr 20, 2007 at 06:12 PM GMT


Tremendous! Thank you for sharing BennyR!!!


Apr 21, 2007 at 06:26 AM
astrolucida
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icon Re: Moon shooting... what equipment next?


VanIsle wrote:
a) buy an Xti for its extra reach. The downside here is that I wont be able to AF. Manual focus is fine, but I am concerned that the xti viewfinder is dim to begin with... so how will it be at f/8? Will I still be able to achieve *critical* focus (I say this, because of course I want to be able to catch as much crater detail as possible) by using manual focus and f/8? I am particularily concerned about shots where the moon is a very thin crescent.


I regularily use the 400f2.8L II + 2x + 1.4x + 1.4x on XTi. That combination means f11, wide open! However, manual focus works quite nicely, with Canon Angle finder C. Mostly this is because the Moon provides such a good contrast, so in your case of a very thin crescent, things might be a bit different. Though, I have found the angle finder to be just the tool for manual focusing.

VanIsle wrote:
b) buy a 2x converter. But again I lose AF. And though the 1D2 vf is quite bright, im sure f/11 won't be so much fun. Also, I know from experiece, that f/8 I am already strating to push my limites for a short enough shutter speed (particularily when a full moon rises at sunset, and is not very bright at all) at an acceptable ISO... going to f/11 , and then stopping down because the 2X will be a bit soft... I worry about shutter speeds.


Talking about shutter speed, a good rule of thumb is that when you take the hundreds (of mm) in focal length, you'll get the maximum exposure time as 1/(that value). I.e. for 400mm, 1/4 s, for 800mm, 1/8s etc.

However, when the Moon is very low, the atmospheric effects are largest (the Moon seems to "boil" in the viewfinder). Hence, a shorter exposure time can be better, at the expense of increasing the ISO. But you should also take a few dozen images and pick the sharpest. The atmosphere is changing constantly and occasionally it is calmer, producing a much sharper image.

As digital images cost nothing, take many and pick the best. Also refocus from time to time. You can pick the sharpest image by choosing the one with the biggest file size, though if the Moon is a small part of the image frame, this method may not be accurate enough.

Also, use a good tripod, mirror lock and a remote shutter or self-timer.


Apr 21, 2007 at 09:54 AM
BennyR
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chuckh wote:

Tremendous! Thank you for sharing BennyR!!!

Thanks Chuck. Is that an FJR in your avatar? I have one of those.

Sorry about the little diversion folks. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.


Apr 21, 2007 at 01:41 PM
Photophile
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Here arec three handheld moon shots with 5D and 20D. With 20D, it is more difficult to focus manually becuase of the smaller viewfinder.

1. 5D+300/F2.8 IS +1.4TC (Canon)+1.4TC (Kenko), auto focus, 100% crop


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2. 5D+300/F2.8 IS +1.4TC (Canon)+1.4TC (Kenko), auto focus, 100% crop


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3. 20D+100-400 IS +1.4TC (Canon), manual focus, 100% crop.


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Apr 21, 2007 at 02:26 PM
VanIsle
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Thanks for all the photos ... theres too many nice ones to go through individually... thanks for sharing them... turned this into quite a fun thread :)

BennyR... your shot with the 2x on the 400/5.6 is quite impressive. What camera body did you use for that?

Tom_W and astrolucida - 400/2.8 sounds nice... little out of my price range though... how much is the sigmonster anyways... with its zoom, it might be the ideal "moon" lens :)

astrolucida - I have indeed experienced the dreaded 'boiling'. You can see that it did quite a number on the 4th image I posted on the moon rising over Vancouver...

I had forgotten about the angle finder... will definitely keep that in mind for manual focus

I always use MLU , tripod, and cable release for these shots. I use a Manfrotto 3021B tripod, and am considering upgrading the ballhead from the 488RC2 (which basically sucks with the 400 when there is any kidn of wind).. looking at a Arca Swiss Z1 perhaps...







Apr 21, 2007 at 06:35 PM

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