Home · Register · Search · View Winners · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       3              8       9       end
  

Archive 2010 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness
  
 
plastic_lens
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Did anyone see this post on Strobist with the Dave Black video where he uses 8 Speedlights packed together on a ring to shoot motocross action pics?

Dave Black Video on Strobist

Now, set the record straight for us: can the images he's shooting be done easier with a fine portable battery setup, or does the Speedlight argument hold-up?? I tend to think that this can all be done without the Speedlights.



Dec 08, 2010 at 04:36 PM
dragonfly5
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Yes, this can be done with another setup - but there is a coolness factor in being able to string together 8 speedlights. Ultimately, this is likely a lighter setup.


Dec 08, 2010 at 04:47 PM
Jim Quinn
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Hi,

Dave Black's setup is probably more expensive than a battery-powered monolight would be. But because the small strobes can work on high-speed sync mode, Black's setup allows him to use much higher shutter speeds to better control the ambient light, an advantage with the fast-action sports he shoots. A monolight would be limited to the camera's top sync speed, usually 1/250th or less depending on the camera.

Jim Quinn



Dec 08, 2010 at 05:03 PM
PShizzy
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Jim's statements are exactly why Dave did this. His reasons for going with the speedlight kits are factors such as weight, the ability to work at any shutter speed, as well as pretty much any exposure value. Cost was one drawback, but given that he already had a list of clients he could use this with, the cost over time wasn't too bad.

Sure you can strobe out a place, but unless you do it right, there are ghosting issues. Overpowering the sun? Yes, but what are your exposure value limitations. . . such as having to shoot at very small apertures (f/8-f/16, etc) in order to work with your limited shutter speeds. Oh, and how much portable power do you need for all this.

The only other way to do anything similar to this is to use a CCD camera, because of their electronic control over shutter speed. The drawback to this is that CCD technology has been pretty stagnant, limiting you to older technology, which brings about its own challenges (limited megapixels, less dynamic range, low ISO noise tolerance, crappy LCD tech for reviewing images quickly, crappier battery tech, etc)

Dave Black is an amazing photographer, and given his experience, he's thought this out, and to him, the value of doing this far outweighed the negative aspects. Anyone who's had to lug their own gear and install their own strobes and remotes would agree that factors such as weight and size play a role in the logistics of a shoot.

When I shot with a D40 against the sun, I used an SB800 with a Quantum Turbo SC. I had access to Elinchroms and other strobes, but then I would have had to consider weight (Vagabonds or similar all weigh 20lb or so), vs cost (Quadra Ranger comes in at well over 1k, and isn't necessary for anything else I do, though I do want one), vs effectiveness (all other setups would have given me more leeway, but my goal wasn't to tackle the sun, simply to compress the dynamic range of my scenes, so why did I need a 400-600ws pack or head?).

Just my thoughts.

Max



Dec 08, 2010 at 05:40 PM
E-Vener
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Jim Quinn wrote:
Hi,

Dave Black's setup is probably more expensive than a battery-powered monolight would be. But because the small strobes can work on high-speed sync mode, Black's setup allows him to use much higher shutter speeds to better control the ambient light, an advantage with the fast-action sports he shoots. A monolight would be limited to the camera's top sync speed, usually 1/250th or less depending on the camera.

Jim Quinn


depending on how he is powering them he can get much faster recycle speed between shots as well., also shorter flash duration than a Monolight or similar powered big battery unit like a Profoto Acute 6B


Edited on Dec 08, 2010 at 08:42 PM · View previous versions



Dec 08, 2010 at 08:30 PM
PShizzy
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Good point Ellis. However, the SB-900's are notoriously prone to overheating, and will shut down if their temp gauge goes off, which happens if you pop a few too many times too rapidly. It's one of the reasons I prefer the old school SB-800.

Max



Dec 08, 2010 at 08:40 PM
cgardner
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


The main rationale for the approach is the ability to use high-speed sync, not necessary for fast shutter speeds or day-as-night backgrounds, but as a way to render scenes normally as perceived in person with a full tonal range using wide apertures for narrow DOF.

Normal flash limits you to 1/200th - 1/250th. That in turn forces you to use f/11 or smaller apertures @ ISO 100 to correctly expose the highlights in the background. It's possible to put an ND filter on the lens and pump more flash power into the foreground to use wider apertures with conventional flash, but that takes a lot of power and the ND filter on the lens affects AF performance; not what you need if shooting at wide apertures.

High Speed Sync was designed primarily to allow wide aperture shooting in sunlight, but per my testing one Canon 580ex flash in HHS only has an effective range (i.e. correctly exposed highlights) of only about 7ft. Adding a second flash increased the effective range to about 10ft. You can extrapolate from there to guesstimate the effective range if 8 HHS flashes are ganged together; every two flashes added would double the range: 4 flashes = 20ft, 8 flashes = 40 ft.

If you need to shoot from 40 ft. at high noon with any aperture / shutter speed combination that's the best way to do it




Dec 08, 2010 at 09:13 PM
butchM
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


another point ... taking 8 speedlights on location vs. a single monolight ... if one of the speedlights crap out ... you can still get by with the other 7 ... also ... by using multiple speedligthts, you have the option to either spread, or concentrate your light ... multiple sources can be much more versatile in many situations vs. using a single more powerful source ... Joe McNally is another example of using a number of smaller flash units as well as David Tejada ... along with Black, these guys are creating some awesome work with speedlights ... now ... weather your business model can support a dozen or more SB900's ... that's a whole other issue ...


Dec 08, 2010 at 09:17 PM
ukphotographer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


plastic_lens wrote:
Now, set the record straight for us: can the images he's shooting be done easier with a fine portable battery setup, or does the Speedlight argument hold-up?? I tend to think that this can all be done without the Speedlights.


Of course it can be done without speedlights. 8 speedlghts are less powerful than a single 200ws Lumedyne, Quantum or Norman when set in HSS mode, make those 400ws or 600ws and there's no competition.

Speedlights appeal to the masses - so expect a few points of disapproval on this fact



Dec 08, 2010 at 09:23 PM
ukphotographer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


cgardner wrote:
.
If you need to shoot from 40 ft. at high noon with any aperture / shutter speed combination that's the best way to do it


I totally disagree. Whatever speed and whatever aperture.



Dec 08, 2010 at 09:29 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



bobbyz
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


He was shooting later in the day. So could have done with couple of flashes. Maybe he used more to get faster recycling times. Cool setup though.




Dec 08, 2010 at 10:06 PM
corndog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Yep, necessary or not, it sure looked neat! The motocross video was cool too.


Dec 09, 2010 at 02:59 AM
ericvgill
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


PShizzy wrote:
Good point Ellis. However, the SB-900's are notoriously prone to overheating, and will shut down if their temp gauge goes off, which happens if you pop a few too many times too rapidly. It's one of the reasons I prefer the old school SB-800.


He's almost certainly using the 900 for the superior long throw the improved fresnels provide. Using AAs instead of big and/or HV batteries will force you to keep your framerate down.

Not sure I agree with the approach v.s. long-duration monoblocs with long throw adaptors and "hypersync", but it obviously works.



Dec 09, 2010 at 03:34 AM
BrianO
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


cgardner wrote:
The main rationale for the approach is the ability to use high-speed sync, not necessary for fast shutter speeds or day-as-night backgrounds, but as a way to render scenes normally as perceived in person with a full tonal range using wide apertures for narrow DOF.


This capture of Mr. Black's shot doesn't look to me to have a narrow DoF; rather a pretty deep one.

I'd say he was using the 8-light radial setup for the high shutter-speed capability, and that's what the article says as well:

"Dave is a big TTL/FP sync user. So for him this makes more sense than a case of big lights which would limit his sync speed to 1/250th of a second."








Dec 09, 2010 at 05:02 AM
corndog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Heya Brian, other than the differences between flash/strobe specs, is there any difference between using a 580 to HSS a strobe...and just using a strobe in HSS? Not sure if that question made sense, it doesn't read very well...


Dec 09, 2010 at 05:43 AM
BrianO
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


corndog wrote:
Heya Brian, other than the differences between flash/strobe specs, is there any difference between using a 580 to HSS a strobe...and just using a strobe in HSS? Not sure if that question made sense, it doesn't read very well...


If I understand the question; Canon's Speedlites and Nikon's Speedlights (as well as some others) are able to fire in a mode that extends the duration of the flash -- at the cost of some loss of power -- in such a way that fast shutter speeds can be used. HSS, or FP Mode as Nikon calls it, simulates a continuous light source rather than a flash burst. Normal studio strobes don't do this, although there are ways to exceed "normal sync speed" with some of those, too.

This advertising piece for Pocket Wizards does a good job of explaining the what, why, and how of High Speed Sync:

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/tutorials/pocketwizard_controltl_optimiz/



Dec 09, 2010 at 06:15 AM
BrianO
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


I mentioned above that you can do something similar to High Speed Sync with studio strobes. Having watched the video on how HSS works, you may be wondering how that's possible.

Let's say we have a strobe set at a power level that yields a 1/1200 flash duration. If we were to then use a shutter speed of 1/2000 or 1/8000, we can see that the flash would be lit for the whole duration -- and then some -- of the shutter travel, just as when using High Speed sync.

The problem has always been triggering the strobes at the right time; the normal camera sync just won't work. But by using Pocket Wizard's HyperSync (not to be confused with High Speed sync) it is now possible to do a precision match of the flash and the shutter to get this to work in many cases. There are also people working on various other types of systems with different equipment, so called "system hacks," that can also do this, but I don't know a lot about how that work is progressing.

Anyway, linking to Pocket Wizards again, here's a bit about HyperSync:

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/tutorials/hypersync_tutorial_video/



Dec 09, 2010 at 06:42 AM
BrianO
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


corndog wrote:
...is there any difference between using a 580 to HSS a strobe...and just using a strobe in HSS?


I think I may have misunderstood your question, but I like my above responses anyway.

If what you meant was, "Do you need a 580EX on camera to trigger another Speedlite in HSS mode, or can you do it with just one Speedlite?" the answer is, you can do it with just one.

You can have the Speedlite mounted on the camera, or connected to the camera with a fully-dedicated cable, or use a fully-dedicated radio link.

I currently have both a Canon OC-E3 cable and a Flash Zebra 24-foot Off-camera cable, and I've used HSS with my 580EX connected to the camera with both of them.



Dec 09, 2010 at 06:54 AM
BrianO
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


Ian, if you're still monitoring this thread: do I recall correctly that you've done some "beyond sync speed" work with studio strobes?
If so, could you give a little technical primer; this is a bit beyond my expertise.



Dec 09, 2010 at 07:07 AM
cgardner
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · "Hanging Eight with Dave Black" silliness


BrianO wrote:
This capture of Mr. Black's shot doesn't look to me to have a narrow DoF; rather a pretty deep one.


As with ambient only shooting the priority of shutter vs aperture varies with the goal of the shot. His goal in that shot was obviously to stop the action. In portraiture where HHS is used the goal is usually shallow DOF.

Certainly there is no requirement to use narrow DOF with HSS, its often just the result of the shutter / aperture/ ISO = correct highlight exposure equation when HHS its used. But then there's no requirement for correct highlight exposure either. HSS is just a tool and like any tool it can be used many different ways.

As for the rationale behind its invention? One can only speculate, but considering the limited range with conventional use of HSS with one or two flashes (7 -10 ft.) it's not the tool of choice for stopping action outdoors in situation like the photo you linked, which is exactly why Black gangs eight of them together in an unconventional configuration.




Dec 09, 2010 at 02:52 PM
1
       2       3              8       9       end




FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       3              8       9       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username   Password    Retrive password