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Archive 2010 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...
  
 
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #1 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Im looking for the best option for outdoor "hyper sync" photos. Right now I have an SB600 and SB800 I can use to trigger my radiopoppers in FP mode (basically tricking it to hypersync) my White Lightning X1600 studio flash. Do I always need to make sure my flash duration is longer than my shutter speed? I know that shutter speeds faster than 1/250th are "simulated" so to say as my camera uses a focal plane shutter.... Ill do some tests later and see just how fast the RP's will really go

Secondly, Is there an ideal way to do this? Metering I assume will be quite difficult, but I think that if I match my flash duration with the speed of my focal plane shutter ( I have a D3s ) then I should be able to pretty easily control output by just moving the flash forward or backward (using distance for ratios). This ( I assume ) would allow me to still meter correctly with my Sekonic L358, but I would of course have to keep the monolight always at the same power level.

Now I know my D3s has a max true sync of 1/250th (at any speed faster than this it becomes a traveling "slit" so to say), but I do now actually know how fast this "slit" travels at speeds above 1/250th. Does anyone know how fast the slit travels on Nikons? I would assume 1/250th, but I have heard also that it is 1/400th. Seems like it would be more beneficial the faster it is.

Interestingly enough my WL X1600 actually has a LONGER flash duration as I dial down the power slider (with the 1/4 power switch deactivated) so I am thinking there will be an ideal power level to use it at. With the 1/4 power switch activated it lets out a VERY fast flash (because it only uses one capacitor) so it would not be useable in this mode.

I am also interested in using Norman battery powered units with this as well, but on their website they do state if the flash durations are T.1 or T.5.

If anyone can enlighten me I would be really appreciative! I think I could get some amazing results if I could sync a Norman 200B at 1/2000th on my D3 :-)


edit: If the above is not correct I suppose I could always go the leaf shutter route with a lens adapter...but that seems quite cumbersome as well!



Dec 02, 2010 at 09:22 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #2 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


You will get no different result with your Norman 200B at 1/2000th than you will at 1/250 other than a change in aperture.

What amazing result are you expecting? If you are wanting to overpower the ambient you need more power. A 200B won't be enough in dirct sunlight, unless you plan on using about four of them.



Dec 02, 2010 at 03:30 PM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #3 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Well I know I am not going to overpower sunlight with my Sb800s or any other speedlight, that is for sure. The 200B is a huge step up from that. I figure with 2 200B's I could get decent results by exposing sunlight for a dark-ish midtone, then using one 200B for highlights and one to fill in shadows. Likely a 1:3 ratio done with distances. Of course in any type of indirect sunlight (even slightly filtered) this would be much easier. Or am overthinking this and should I just be using ND filters?

I would also have the added advantage of being able to use the WL X1600 if I was near enough to an outlet.... and I can tell you that thing is definitely powerful enough to overpower sunlight. If I could figure out the curtain travel time of my Exakta 66 medium format film camera, I could do a lot with flash as well as this thing only syncs up to 1/60th but is rated to 1/1000 normally.

Anybody know the curtain travel time on the D3's? This would be very important to me in getting consistent exposure results. Does anyone also know if the Norman and White Lightnings have fairly CONSISTENT flash durations at fixed settings?



Dec 03, 2010 at 12:26 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #4 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


kawasakiguy37 wrote:
Well I know I am not going to overpower sunlight with my Sb800s or any other speedlight, that is for sure. The 200B is a huge step up from that. I figure with 2 200B's I could get decent results by exposing sunlight for a dark-ish midtone, then using one 200B for highlights and one to fill in shadows. Likely a 1:3 ratio done with distances. Of course in any type of indirect sunlight (even slightly filtered) this would be much easier. Or am overthinking this and should I just be using ND filters?


Where does the Hypersync come in here? You not going to achieve anything more with it than you already described.. if it will work.


I would also have the added advantage of being able to use the WL X1600 if I was near enough to an outlet....


...and at 800ws - that's around what you need. Not Hypersync.



Dec 03, 2010 at 08:25 AM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #5 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


So how else would you recommend using faster shutter speeds with flash? Say I want to balance ambient but still freeze motion?


Dec 03, 2010 at 10:51 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #6 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Im looking for the best option for outdoor "hyper sync" photos.

If you include portability in that, then battery powered high output 800ws+ is where you should be heading.

How fast do you want to go?

The easy answer is @ 1/2000s, a high powered flash with short 1/2000s flash duration sticking to your maximum sync of 1/250s would be the answer, especially if you're planning any overpowering of ambient and you can't get your Normans close to the action. Simply, theres no better way than just increasing your WS providing it has the short duration you require, or the output in WS with a long duration. Failing that, your WL1600 with a battery pack.

Using Hypersync - however you plan on doing it - you will not be getting any more output from your Norman's at this speed, merely relying on their long duration to provide a continuous source for your 1/2000s shutter combined with a reduction of 3 stops in aperture. This reduction would be natural resulting from increasing your shutterspeed whilst opening your aperture - culminating in no ambient or flash ratio change. If you manage to achieve what you need at 1/250s, then depending (since you haven't tried it yet) on how your Normans and RP's perform, you might achieve the same and be OK, or they might not work as well beyond 1/250s.

You would be better off just trying out your Normans rather than finding out the T.1 / T.05 times as these seem to have no bearing in reality. Only kissing plenty of frogs with your specific tecnique and equipment will give you the answer. I can get full sync up to max SS with a variety of equipment ranging from 200ws-6K with MY setup, as well as increasing the output of Speedlights compared to FP mode, if it's needed. It will be interesting to hear how you get on with your Normans.



Dec 03, 2010 at 12:05 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #7 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


The sync limit is a result of the camera needing to wait for the first curtain to completely clear the sensor before firing the flash. On a camera with a sync speed of 1/250th that will take about 1/300th - 1/400th sec. - the speed the curtains travel.

The second curtain travels at the same speed. What controls exposure is the latency between when the first curtain starts and the second curtain follow. As the indicated speed on the camera dial decreases the gap between the shutters becomes narrower.

Normally the camera waits until the first curtain clears before sending the "Fire" signal to the PC connector and center pin of the hot shoe. What the HSS hotshoe flash hack does is trick an optically slaved manual flash to fire BEFORE the first curtain opens. That happens because in HSS the hot shoe flash starts pulsing before the shutter opens.

Once the manual flash fires the problem is getting BOTH curtains (i..e. the shutter gap) across the sensor while the flash tube is still outputting light. The shorter the indicated shutter speed on the camera, the less time it will take the curtains and the gap they form to clear the sensor.

So to make the hack work you need a flash with a very long flash duration and a very short indicated shutter speed (i.e. narrow curtain gap). You'd want to start with the shortest speed on the camera, e.g. 1/8000th then test progressively slow shutter speeds by shooting an evenly illuminated white wall until you start to see uneven lighting across the frame.

Using a HHS flash as the trigger you have no control over how soon before the shutter opening the hot shoe flash starts pulsing, triggering the optical slave on the studio flash. With HHS the studio flash will fire then there will be a lag before the shutter opens and the gap starts moving. That's wasted light.

Using a TTL PW radio trigger allows adjustment of the advanced firing of the studio flash, allowing the shutter to open sooner after the studio flash fires. That translates into being able to get a wider slit across the sensor while the flash is glowing -- a slower indicated shutter speed.

That's how it works. The practical problem in using it is that like ambient light the exposure is affected by shutter speed and at the speeds needed to get the curtain gap across the sensor during the flash duration (1/2000 - 1/800th) you need very powerful flashes and/or flashes which are very close to the subject being photographed.

Outdoors the more practical solution for those cool dark background shots is to simply wait for dusk to shoot them

Indoors when shooting action, like leaping or spinning dancers is where the technique would be useful to eliminate the blur normal flash duration speeds causes on rapidly circular motion such as arms and fingers.






Dec 03, 2010 at 02:37 PM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #8 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


I wanted to mainly use these for freezing action outdoors and outdoor portraits while still balancing ambient and not having to carry a bunch of equipment. In addition FP mode just loses way too much in power for the already weak flashes. I also wanted to use it for outdoor portraits where the ambient must be balanced and then the subject filled in.

Would it really matter what my shutter speed was at if it was above 1/250th? At this point it seems like I should be more concerned with the curtain travel time, as regardless of how wide the "slit" is the flash would still have to be on during this whole period. I cant achieve this at 1/250th, as ambient is often way too bright and I get blown highlights in the background. Using FP sync with speedlights sort of works, but it is not ideal for portraits as they lose a lot of power and are hard to use with modifiers. So this was the appeal of the bare bulb normans

My idea of getting curtain travel time and flash duration close to each other was to minimize lost light, and to also setup a fixed amount of stops of wasted light so that I could again use my light meter (with some manual tweaking to each reading) to measure the incident from each flash. The normans have comparatibely "long" flash durations, especially at higher power, so I thought they would be perfect for this. Im going to do some extensive testing and see what results I can come up with. Perhaps a 400B or a more powerful battery pack system would be more ideal for this.



Dec 03, 2010 at 08:38 PM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #9 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Unfortunately, without a proper leaf shutter there is no way of increasing your flash output at speeds over your max. sync speed than that you can already attain by just using full power at max. sync... Maximum sync speed gives maximum ambient beating output. Anything beyond this doesn't provide any advantage and only in cases where the flash/sync/camera can retain this ratio will you manage to get shorter shutter speeds and wider apertures.. JUST, no change in ratio.


Would it really matter what my shutter speed was at if it was above 1/250th? At this point it seems like I should be more concerned with the curtain travel time, as regardless of how wide the "slit" is the flash would still have to be on during this whole period. I cant achieve this at 1/250th, as ambient is often way too bright and I get blown highlights in the background. Using FP sync with speedlights sort of works, but it is not ideal for portraits as they lose a lot of power and are hard to use with modifiers.
...Show more

Shutter speed and travel time are not really the issue.. whatever they are in the best case scenario you will obtain no benefit to your flash output ratio compared to ambient without using a more powerful flash. In an ideal world, a flash would be created which had a variable output duration of between 1/125s - 1/200s which is the approximate variable times required for a continuous light source to illuminate a subject for shutterspeeds between 1/250s - 1/8000s (8-4ms). Off the shelf a Broncolor Senso A4 might fit the bill pretty well at 2400ws, with this being provided over 1/90s-1/300s but so too would a Bowens 6K. At lower outputs 1000-2000ws the selection is pretty sparse with most flash units heading towards the shorter durations. You already have a fair performer with your WL1600 by all accounts.

Perhaps a 400B or a more powerful battery pack system would be more ideal for this.

Heading in the right direction. More power.. A Lumedyne works well at 400ws and at 800ws, other battery powered portables might too if they can provide a uniform flash duration over the duration period of 1/125s - 1/200s approx. (and then it depends on your radio triggers too).

I ramble on about this here at my blog site as it would be useful to have a flash capable of not being beaten by the max-x sync routine and being capable of providing better performance at higher shutter speeds - whichever way it's done. Have a look, there might be something of interest: Commercial Photographer



Dec 03, 2010 at 10:52 PM
 

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brucemuir
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p.1 #10 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


kawasakiguy37 wrote:
So how else would you recommend using faster shutter speeds with flash? Say I want to balance ambient but still freeze motion?


Get a D70 for 3 bills if you can give up a little resolution. Nikon made a few newer bodies with electronic shutter also.

I think it has to be CCD sensor.

I use a 1D for projects like this.



Dec 03, 2010 at 11:11 PM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #11 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


I actually have a D40 sitting in my room right now without a battery. Hell I should be using that.....

regardless, though, Im not trying to totally overpower sunlight. Freezing action is more important with the use of the fast shutter (freezing ambient)



Dec 04, 2010 at 06:29 AM
corndog
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p.1 #12 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Hey kawiguy, forgive my ignorance, where is the complexity in this? Can't you just use your speedlight to trigger your WL1600 and then just set your camera however you want?


Dec 04, 2010 at 06:46 AM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #13 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Basically I was looking for an alternative way to use high shutter speeds for freezing ambient motion. Obviously I need a flash powerful enough for the right ambient to flash balance, and you can freeze the subject just with a quick flash.


Dec 04, 2010 at 07:05 AM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #14 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


Basically I was looking for an alternative way to use high shutter speeds for freezing ambient motion. Obviously I need a flash powerful enough for the right ambient to flash balance, and you can freeze the subject just with a quick flash.


Dec 04, 2010 at 07:05 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #15 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


kawasakiguy37 wrote:
I actually have a D40 sitting in my room right now without a battery. Hell I should be using that.....


Smaller image size, but still remember with this that you will now need More power AND short flash duration, rather than More power AND long flash duration.

Even if you factor in using speedlights with the D40, the physical flash advantage will only be given at 1/320s (a small benefit, and something exploited with the new D7000 and it's 1/320 FP mode) after this, pretty much the same ratio can be maintained depending on radio. Not much, but you don't LOSE 2.5 stops from HSS or using FP mode.



Dec 04, 2010 at 09:51 AM
kawasakiguy37
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p.1 #16 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


My speedlights are much less powerful in FP mode when I run them above 1/250th. I think it says that right in the manual.




Dec 04, 2010 at 10:01 AM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #17 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


With your D40 they won't be in FP mode. They will be in plain old regular flash mode. With the D40 you tape the non-sync terminals to trick the camera that a non-Nikon flash is used and then just use manual settings. Over 1/250s the electronic shutter samples the shutter duration you set on camera by only sampling the duration required. (I'm unsure whether it just switches off the sensor or just times the exposure). This way, you get more than your anticipated loss of 2.5 stops.

edit: More useable light that is, not more loss.

Edited on Dec 04, 2010 at 03:28 PM · View previous versions



Dec 04, 2010 at 11:05 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #18 · Hyper ~ Sync | Oh no! Not this again...


You need to get out of your chair and experiment.

First find out what the range limits are for your flashes in HHS mode. Yes the power drops, but if you use dual flash in an overlapping pattern it helps to compensate for that drop. It's also possible to gang several HHS slaves into one modifier (a commonly used workaround to the power limitation).

Next try using a flash In HHS mode as an optical trigger for your WL flash. Don't use the RadioPoppers. Radio triggers introduce latency. Put a flash in the hot shoe. In HSS mode it will start pulsing a split second before the first curtain opens, causing the WL to fire. The goal then is to get the GAP between the shutters completely across the sensor while it is still illuminated. The way to do that is to use short indicated speeds. Start with the smallest gap, which will occur at 1/8000th then try 1/4000th, 1/2000th, etc. and see what happens rather than speculating based on incorrect assumptions.



Dec 04, 2010 at 03:13 PM





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