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Archive 2010 · AA Filter in cameras.
  
 
AaronNegro
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · AA Filter in cameras.


I have been reading a review of the Leica M9 and the reviewer is very happy with the fact it has no AA filter and how the sharpness of its pictures is just epic.

Are we missing something having it? Would you buy a cam from canon with no AA Filter?

Just curious how it would perform for portraits myself.


P.S: if you know if there is a way to mod my 5D or someone has done it...



Sep 28, 2010 at 09:16 PM
vaud
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · AA Filter in cameras.


MaxMax does conversions where they remove the AA filter.

http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm



Sep 28, 2010 at 09:25 PM
AaronNegro
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · AA Filter in cameras.


I can see a difference in their samples. It is even more visible in the Nikon ones.


Sep 28, 2010 at 09:35 PM
runamuck
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · AA Filter in cameras.


This one comes up regularly. One side effect of doing this is increased Moire in some patterns. This can range from extremely minor to extremely major, depending on the scene.


Sep 28, 2010 at 09:48 PM
AGeoJO
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · AA Filter in cameras.


Without AA filter, your camera will be prone to moire effect, which shows up more in fashion photography. For landscape and regular portrait, even wedding, moire is really not bad and hardly visible. I do have a Leica M9 and I have yet to see any image that shows moire to an objectionable level but I am not looking for it either. BTW, the slight loss of apparent sharpness due to AA filter can be compensated by tastefully increasing the sharpening level.


Sep 28, 2010 at 09:51 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · AA Filter in cameras.


As sensel dimensions decrease and pixel count increases the need for AA filters become less and less. If the resolution is sufficient so that the spatial sampling rate is more than 2x the spatial frequency of the region of repetitive pattern, you won't get aliasing. I would expect the next gen large MP count cameras to have weaker AA filters.


Sep 29, 2010 at 12:28 AM
scalesusa
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · AA Filter in cameras.


The AA filter is a balancing act between slightly sharper images and moire. Its there simply because it does more good than bad. There is some excellent information to help understand why it is used in conjunction with software filters in digital cameras here:

There are a series of short videos explaining the basics.

http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/Demystifying_Part1.html




Sep 29, 2010 at 12:37 AM
surf monkey
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · AA Filter in cameras.


Does anyone know how the AA filter is implemented in DSLRs?
Shouldn't they just make a version without the filter?
Couldn't they also just have an "AA filter" or "anti-moire" element in the software?

I'd certainly like to try my 5Dmk2 without one, but I'm not entirely convinced I would be better off.



Sep 29, 2010 at 12:42 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · AA Filter in cameras.


surf monkey wrote:
Does anyone know how the AA filter is implemented in DSLRs?
Shouldn't they just make a version without the filter?
Couldn't they also just have an "AA filter" or "anti-moire" element in the software?

I'd certainly like to try my 5Dmk2 without one, but I'm not entirely convinced I would be better off.


Generally, it's a very thin filter in front of the sensor usually made from a birefringent material like Lithium Niobate and is used to essentially blur the image.

You can get you camera hot-rodded as they call it

http://www.maxmax.com/



Sep 29, 2010 at 02:00 AM
DocsPics
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · AA Filter in cameras.


Who here has had their 5DkII "hot-rodded" and how did it turn out? I'm tempted....


Sep 29, 2010 at 02:43 AM
 

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Joseph C J
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · AA Filter in cameras.


Pixel Perfect wrote:
As sensel dimensions decrease and pixel count increases the need for AA filters become less and less. If the resolution is sufficient so that the spatial sampling rate is more than 2x the spatial frequency of the region of repetitive pattern, you won't get aliasing. I would expect the next gen large MP count cameras to have weaker AA filters.


Correct me if I am wrong: I guess, increasing sampling rate would still result in aliasing, albeit for a repetitive pattern with a higher spacial freq. Because, real world patterns have an infinite bandwidth.



Sep 29, 2010 at 03:03 AM
ViscaB
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · AA Filter in cameras.


How come digital Medium Format camera's can do without one?

Edit:

Can we expect the next generation 35mm DSLR's to do without one? 40 MP Medium format camera's can do without.

Edited on Sep 29, 2010 at 06:50 AM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2010 at 03:19 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · AA Filter in cameras.


Joseph C J wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong: I guess, increasing sampling rate would still result in aliasing, albeit for a repetitive pattern with a higher spacial freq. Because, real world patterns have an infinite bandwidth.


The number of times a repetitive pattern causes trouble is generally low and it would only be for very high spatial frequency regions ie regions of repeating pattern of very fine detail. So increasing resolution will move the problem to a region of different spatial repetition frequency. Hopefully these regions will become less and less a problem as resolution increases. So they'll probably keep an AA filter for a time to come, but it will most likely , but they should become weaker as MP counts increase.

I should note that of course this is for stills. The problem of course is that video is relatively low res (1920x1080 max and not increasing for a long time) and optimising the AA filter for high res stills, may actually be worse for video. But that's another topic for discussion.


Edited on Sep 29, 2010 at 05:03 AM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2010 at 04:59 AM
Nowhere Man
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · AA Filter in cameras.


ViscaB wrote:
How come digital Medium Format camera's can do without one?




Sep 29, 2010 at 05:03 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · AA Filter in cameras.


From what I've read a few things have come up to explain this. One reason is that MF lenses are lower resolution than DSLR lenses, which can out-resolve the sensor. A MF lens doesn't have to resolve as much to produce excellent IQ, the image doesn't need to be enlarged as much. In effect the lens is doing some of the filtering for you. I'm sure there MF lenses that are high resolution and will this exacerbate the problem?

Also they do have to deal with moire but it's not usually something that can't be corrected. Phase One backs have excellent de-moire software available from Capture one and most users say it rarely comes up or isn't noticeable.

This would be a really good question to ask on the alt gear forum.

Edited on Sep 30, 2010 at 06:38 AM · View previous versions



Sep 29, 2010 at 06:06 AM
ZoneV
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · AA Filter in cameras.


I work in a company that manufactures machine vision cameras - up to 24x36 mm sensors in the moment. We do not use AA filters there.
My infrared modified Canon EOS 350D has as IR camera no longer a AA filter inside, because the AA and the IR-cut filter are bonded together.
After some thousend IR photos I have never seen moire problems - but I do not use it for fashion.



Sep 29, 2010 at 07:44 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · AA Filter in cameras.



Shoot nudes and moire won't be a problem
Image 471931 not found





Sep 29, 2010 at 08:56 AM
johntodd
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · AA Filter in cameras.


Pixel Perfect wrote:
From what I've read a few things have come up to explain this. One reason is that MF lenses are lower resolution than DSLR lenses, which can out-resolve the sensor. A MF lens does have to resolve as much to produce excellent IQ, the image doesn't need to be enlarged as much. In effect the lens is doing some of the filtering for you. I'm sure there MF lenses that are high resolution and will this exacerbate the problem?

Also they do have to deal with moire but it's not usually something that can't be corrected. Phase One backs have
...Show more


I think it's probably also safe to say that MFDB users are *certain* to be post-processing their images, and be willing to recognise and clean up some moire. I don't think they're posting straight-out-of-camera JPEGs to their Flickr accounts.. :-)



Sep 29, 2010 at 02:18 PM
Beni
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · AA Filter in cameras.


I shoot weddings and moire is often there in the veil or some types of suits. This is with a regular 5D. Wouldn't begin to consider no AA filter..


Sep 29, 2010 at 03:46 PM
surf monkey
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · AA Filter in cameras.


DocsPics wrote:
Who here has had their 5DkII "hot-rodded" and how did it turn out? I'm tempted....


Anyone do this? I'm also very interested.



Sep 29, 2010 at 04:45 PM
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