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Archive 2010 · Post Processing Techniques

  
 
sebboh
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p.8 #1 · p.8 #1 · Post Processing Techniques


awesome! thanks for the tutorial. i think for most daytime outdoor shots i prefer the more natural look, but this looks like it could be wonderful for night shots with mixed lights and indoor shots of people.


May 11, 2011 at 11:50 AM
Bifurcator
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p.8 #2 · p.8 #2 · Post Processing Techniques


I think it doesn't matter about the particular results in this case. It's the technique I'm grateful for! Very useful! Thanks duderino! Errr, denoir!

I do something similar when it's called for but I didn't know I could plant anchors right off the image with the finger tool selected like that! Awesome! I learned something! It's a lot easier that way! I'm gonna call it the denoir selection mode!




May 11, 2011 at 12:22 PM
AhamB
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p.8 #3 · p.8 #3 · Post Processing Techniques


Bifurcator wrote:
I do something similar when it's called for but I didn't know I could plant anchors right off the image with the finger tool selected like that! Awesome! I learned something! It's a lot easier that way! I'm gonna call it the denoir selection mode!


That's how such things undeservedly get named after a person. That function has been in PS and Lightroom for years.



May 11, 2011 at 12:28 PM
bigkidneys
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p.8 #4 · p.8 #4 · Post Processing Techniques


It seems as though most PP techniques in this thread are geared towards LR or PS. I primarily use Aperture 3 but do have PS5. I know there is a wealth of tools to use in PS5 but to be honest, shy away from using that program as no matter how many tutorials I watch, I still get confused. Does anyone here use Aperture 3 for most PPing or is it somewhat inferior to LR? I received PS5 for free and have been using Aperture 3 since I got into photography last year which is why I am somewhat biased only because it is familiar to me. Looking at most suggestions in this thread, it seems as though the options are not included in A3. I am particularly confused when talking curves... Damn, and I thought I was fairly intelligent


May 11, 2011 at 01:38 PM
carstenw
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p.8 #5 · p.8 #5 · Post Processing Techniques


I use Aperture 3, and used to use LR1/2, and also tried LR3. I would say that overall they are equivalent, with some strengths on both sides. Neither program is as good as PS at certain things, such as sharpening, selective operations, and so on. Aperture 3 does have a decent Curves tool which you can find at the top of the Edit tab, under Adjustments.

Edited on May 11, 2011 at 02:10 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2011 at 01:47 PM
bigkidneys
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p.8 #6 · p.8 #6 · Post Processing Techniques


Thanks for that. I have seen it but really haven't tried to learn how to effectively use it.


May 11, 2011 at 01:52 PM
abhijeeth
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p.8 #7 · p.8 #7 · Post Processing Techniques


AhamB wrote:
That's how such things undeservedly get named after a person. That function has been in PS and Lightroom for years.


Don Margulis was (is) a big proponent of LAB and wrote a couple of well received books on it. Even before he pushed it out, it was in PS for a while. Situations like these are well suited to LAB.

In some situations, you can get by with just split toning the Highlights and Shadows separately. However, it would be easier if the Adjustment Brush tool also included a slider for WB.






Edited on May 11, 2011 at 03:33 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2011 at 02:14 PM
AhamB
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p.8 #8 · p.8 #8 · Post Processing Techniques


You can't compare RAW developing programmes like Aperture/Lightroom/Capture One/etc. and Photoshop. The RAW developers have been getting more sophisticated editing options, but it's still not even remotely comparable to what PS can do.

You're really missing out by not using PS. There are very simple but powerful things you can do with layers. The basic concepts are pretty simple. You just need to try one of the simpler tutorials and do something with your shots to get the hang of the basic uses of PS (such as sharpening for the web).


abhijeeth wrote:
In some situations, you can get by with just split toning the Highlights and Shadows separately. However, it would be easiest if the Adjustment Brush tool also included a slider for WB.


Nik Viveza (PS plugin) is really handy for selective adjustments, but you can adjust the colors with the adjustment brush in LR too. I've used it to make shots with mixed lighting look neutral.

Edited on May 11, 2011 at 03:34 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2011 at 03:31 PM
abhijeeth
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p.8 #9 · p.8 #9 · Post Processing Techniques


AhamB wrote:
....Nik Viveza (PS plugin) is really handy for selective adjustments, but you can adjust the colors with the adjustment brush in LR too. I've used it to make shots with mixed lighting look neutral....


I've heard/read that in quite a few times, I should try it out.

If you don't mind sharing, how do you usually do this in LR? I haven't properly explored the color setting from within the LR3 adjustment brush panel.






May 11, 2011 at 04:07 PM
abhijeeth
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p.8 #10 · p.8 #10 · Post Processing Techniques


I realized I haven't addressed the main topic, so here goes. Sorry I am joining the discussion somewhat late!

With Zeiss lenses, I've found that for me, it is a matter of taking the image from 80%/90% to 100% and consequently I don't need to spend that much time tweaking the files. I find that if I do my part correctly, then the lenses give you a very high baseline when it comes to colors and sharpness.
Whatever gets done is almost always done in LR3 and usually takes a few minutes per image.


1. I first select a camera profile I like for that image. Usually I switch between Camera Standard
or Adobe Standard profile or tweak them a bit.
2. I crop to taste, creating a virtual copies for different crops if I need to compare them together.
I love pano crops, 2:1 to 3:1 in particular and find the 21mm focal length and its FOV lends itself particularly well for this.
3. Adjusting WB. I just eyeball this and adjust to taste or my memory of the scene - whichever is stronger!
4. Gentle split toning of Shadows & Highlights, if the image needs it. [ I don't go more than 5%
saturation level in the sliders for this]
5. HSL work. If the camera profile is not a great fit to the image, then this gets some work. I use the camera
profile as the coarse control knob and the HSL sliders as a finer control knob
6. Curves: Most of the time, the adjustment I'll usually do here is dial down the "darks" by 5 points or so.
Personal preference really. I really like some punch in the 1/4 to 1/2 tones. Mostly, I leave the lowest quarter tones alone, unless I am printing.

On my 100/2 CY, except for portraits, I do this almost all the time because I am so used to (& love) the slightly contrastier rendering of the ZEs. With the 21, I rarely need to do this. Plenty of contrast to begin with. With the 50ZE, a few times yes.

If needed, sometimes I'll ease up on the highlights either in "curves" or in the highlight recovery slider. Here the situation is somewhat different . With the 50ZE, I rarely need to adjust the highlights [probably just a coincidence so far with the shots I've taken]. With the 21, I've observed that I need to be really careful.

7. Export (resize, sharpen, convert to sRGB, add copyright tags) & upload.

8. Color Gamut: On some images, coming down from ProPhoto or MelissaRGB down to sRGB is more painful than usual, in that case I'll have to play with the sRGB version to make it a tad better.

Other stuff:
================
Clarity: I agree with Luka & others that copious amounts of "clarity" that works well with Canon lenses will not produce good results with Zeiss glass.

Vibrance: sometimes, a click of Vibrance [to borrow from Carsten's choice of words] helps. But I never need as much as I need with some EF glass.

Saturation: The palette from ZE glass has already some healthy levels of saturation, so I usually don't play with
this on a global scale, instead preferring to address this in the HSL section to tones that need it.




May 11, 2011 at 06:05 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #11 · p.8 #11 · Post Processing Techniques


PS is (sadly, because it is difficult) the industrial strength tool compared with the lightweight attribute editors - the raw converters or RCs. Not all RCs, which so many users now depend upon for advanced 'editing', let you use your own colour space on exit, which is a bastard act, as they should honour the user's intentions for their next application, typically PS and its unrivalled host of plugins and unlimited choice of colour space - of course.

Capture NX is one that not only does let you exit in your choice of CS, but lets you choose which space to work in ('view in' really, as CS is not settled pre-export). I am surprised Adobe do not let you have any space you want in LR for colour-critical work, here is an excerpt from their 'help' pages:

'For raw files, the Develop module assumes a wide color space based on the color values of the ProPhoto RGB color space. ProPhoto RGB encompasses most colors that cameras can record.'

That is most assuredly does, by being so very large a container, some would say too large for a realistic base for colour editing for images to be used for any output (you better have soft-proofing) - not many Prophoto printers or monitors out there.

I would much rather use a working space one that is better matched to the camera and typical scene colour gamut, so I use Joseph Holmes's DCam3 which is about 30% larger than Adobe RGB but much more suited to typical DSLR output than the monster Prophoto space which extends into unreality, quite literally. I like his colour model better also for handling colour intensity.

But most of us get away just fine with Adobe 98 RGB, which will become the new sRGB in a few short years...for serious work in any case. And what is a little colour clipping between friends?

Dan Margulis was involved in a religious war for years accompanied by lots of red-faced arm-waving, trying to establish the primacy of LAB as a superior pixel editor colour space. He lost in the marketplace, for many good reasons, the existence of viable alternatives inside RGB being a prominent one of them. And many users were uncomfortable swapping back and forth from their RGB spaces. LAB is very limiting but some geeks absolutely love it. More, too much more, on this in his books and some color fora.



May 11, 2011 at 07:49 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #12 · p.8 #12 · Post Processing Techniques


Meant to add this old but useful article by Michael Reichmann:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/prophoto-rgb.shtml#



May 11, 2011 at 07:52 PM
denoir
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p.8 #13 · p.8 #13 · Post Processing Techniques


philip_pj wrote:
Dan Margulis was involved in a religious war for years accompanied by lots of red-faced arm-waving, trying to establish the primacy of LAB as a superior pixel editor colour space. He lost in the marketplace, for many good reasons, the existence of viable alternatives inside RGB being a prominent one of them. And many users were uncomfortable swapping back and forth from their RGB spaces. LAB is very limiting but some geeks absolutely love it. More, too much more, on this in his books and some color fora.


The simple reason why Margulis 'lost in the marketplace' as you put it is because most people that do color correction are artist that are essentially technological imbeciles, to put it diplomatically. There are a lot of things that you can't do with RGB that you can in LAB.

The approach that Adobe and others have taken to solve the problem of their core user base being technologically challenged is to incorporate LAB mode processing without the users being aware. Ever set white balance in a RAW developer? Split toning? That's all LAB mode behind the scenes, hidden from the user.

LAB mode was created by engineers for engineers and anybody with an engineering or science background will immediately see the point of it. As it is however most Photoshop users are not engineers or scientists and they don't really understand LAB and it just looks like dark magic to them.



May 11, 2011 at 07:59 PM
Bifurcator
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p.8 #14 · p.8 #14 · Post Processing Techniques


Yup! Levitation and blackmagic; Lab!




May 11, 2011 at 08:25 PM
denoir
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p.8 #15 · p.8 #15 · Post Processing Techniques


Bifurcator wrote:
Yup! Levitation and blackmagic; Lab!




There is a very simple method of increasing color separation using Lab mode that is especially useful if you are using a camera/lens combination that doesn't shine in the colors department. The problem with saturation adjustments in RGB mode is that colors and luminosity are tied together while LAB mode separates them. Furthermore Lab expresses colors in terms of balance between pairs (green/magenta, blue/yellow) rather than actual RGB color values.

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/lab/lab-1.jpg

This means that by simply increasing the contrast in the a & b channels you drive colors apart.

The practical part is simple enough. You go to Lab mode, add an curves adjustment layer and increase the contrast in the a & b channels:

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/lab/lab-2.jpg

http://peltarion.eu/img/comp/lab/lab-3.jpg

Make sure the line crosses the origin or you'll get a color cast. You can then adjust the intensity of the effect with the opacity of the adjustment layer.

The effect? Here are two examples of an RGB saturation increase and the Lab method described above. I've pushed both over the top to illustrate the difference. Open the images in separate tabs in the browser and flip between them.

A:
1) RGB saturation
2) Lab saturation

B:
1) RGB saturation
2) Lab saturation

This technique makes sense if you have finer variations in colors. If you are dealing with a scene with a lot of uniform, continuous colors, it will destroy the nuances of the single colors. Adding contrast for instance in the b channel will drive yellow and blue tones apart creating a better color separation but it will be at the expense of the nuances in the blues and in the yellows. There is no such thing as a free lunch. So use the method with care.

You can of course also use the benefit of luminosity/color separation on the L channel as well - i.e increasing contrast without increasing saturation.

Here's an example:

1) Original image
2) Contrast increase RGB mode
3) Contrast increase Lab mode, L channel only
4) Contrast increase RGB mode + desaturation

As you can see saturation and contrast are inevitably tied in RGB space while in Lab mode you can deal with them separately - i.e increase or decrease the contrast in the image without affecting the colors.

Edited on May 11, 2011 at 09:34 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2011 at 09:14 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.8 #16 · p.8 #16 · Post Processing Techniques


Yes, Luka that LAB mode trick is in the Margulis book. But if you are doing saturation changes in RGB mode then you can specify the layer mode to be "color" so that you don't get the luminosity affected. Or you can steepen a curves adjustment and specify "luminosity " layer mode and not affect the color.
Of course the color separation adjustment is a lot easier done in LAB mode.
One argument against Lab mode was that going into and back out of LAB mode affected IQ a bit.
I never saw an example which backed that up though.



May 11, 2011 at 09:33 PM
denoir
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p.8 #17 · p.8 #17 · Post Processing Techniques


Wayne, yes - those are examples of the 'behind the scenes' LAB processing. When you set the layer mode in RGB to be 'color' it does the processing in LAB mode. It just does it behind the back of the user. Same thing with luminosity.

As for LAB<->RGB conversions affecting IQ, I don't see how that would be possible. LAB mode is orders of magnitude larger than RGB so any transitions should be lossless. You can of course go out of RGB gamut with LAB, but that's a different thing.

Edited on May 11, 2011 at 09:40 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2011 at 09:38 PM
Grenache
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p.8 #18 · p.8 #18 · Post Processing Techniques


While results are generally better in LAB mode, you can do some hacks in rgb mode.

For instance, you can set Curve Adj Layer blend modes to luminosity for contrast adjustment and color for WB adjustment.

Hopping back and forth from color spaces is as easy to hard code into an action as any other step, so the hassle it used to seem to be is gone. In spite of his assertions in his book to the contrary, I often get the most natural toning of BW images in lab mode. In rgb, the contrast gets easily flattened.

Jim



May 11, 2011 at 09:39 PM
Mirek Elsner
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p.8 #19 · p.8 #19 · Post Processing Techniques


If you enjoy Margulis, check out his videos on KelbyTraining. Several hours of interesting training. I did not read his second book, but the classes go well beyond the Lab book.

http://www.kelbytraining.com/instructors/dan-margulis.html

It's a paid site, but the monthly fee is reasonable.




May 11, 2011 at 11:27 PM
AhamB
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p.8 #20 · p.8 #20 · Post Processing Techniques


abhijeeth wrote:
If you don't mind sharing, how do you usually do this in LR? I haven't properly explored the color setting from within the LR3 adjustment brush panel.


It's pretty straightforward, but also not very sophisticaded. I used it to paint over areas that had a blue cast and chose a yellow color with a certain saturation. Just choose a color; you don't need to use any other adjustments. If you want to disable the coloring, just pull the saturation slider back to zero.
You may want to use a fairly high saturation to start with, so that you when you paint lightly there is still a noticeable effect. When you have to paint to 100% opacity and see that you the cast isn't removed sufficiently yet in some places, you can't just raise the saturation because the effect will become too much in the areas where it was actually sufficient already (or you'll have to start erasing in those areas, which is a bit annoying).

I needed this for some portraits that were done in incandescent lighting mixed with some window light, which gave a blue cast to one side of the persons' faces/hair.

I'm sure there are better ways of dealing with this in photoshop, but I'm unfortunately too inexperienced with selective color editing.

Edited on May 12, 2011 at 07:44 AM · View previous versions



May 12, 2011 at 07:39 AM
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