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Leica M/X/T Picture Thread
  
 
joe88
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p.669 #1 · p.669 #1 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Michael, those B&W film shots are all really nice.
Joakim, really nice simple snow abstract, I like it.
Gary, excellent penguin series.
Andrew, really enjoyed your "lens demo" on the Toronto car show set.
Ajay, nice to see you back. Those first two shots are excellent. How is your UPS package?
Allen, more excellent street shots, I like the one on p.668 and the first one on above.

-----
So the UPS truck arrived this morning as scheduled I've been really busy that I didn't have time to really read the manual, etc. This is a test shot of my messy desk, apologies. I shot a bunch of other shots but didn't check the settings as the camera defaulted to jpeg and pics all looked like Portra or Fujicolor film.. yucks!.. too embarrassed to post them. I'll hope to try the camera tomorrow and give it a proper test.







First impressions:
1. It weights and feels like a M9, I don't feel that its heavier or different from the M9 - a good thing.
2. The shutter sound is much improved, really like this. Still not as silent as the film M but much better than the M9.
3. The files are "rich" and very malleable, similar to my RX1
4. The bad? Start up time of 4 sec with SD cards -really too slow and frustrating initially. Found a work around at LUF - reformatted card with this application and it improved to approx 2 sec https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_3/
5. The worse? I shot the picture above at ISO1600 but when I pushed 1.2 stops or more in LR4, banding is really noticeable, so everything everyone else is saying about the poor high ISO is true. See sample below where I pushed 1.2 stops, ie just over ISO3200. Quite disappointing.












Mar 31, 2013 at 04:10 AM
joakim
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p.669 #2 · p.669 #2 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Thanks for the comments and 'Like'

Allen, it took a few seconds before I got my head around the first one on this page and the second one says a lot about our relationship with dogs.

Joe, congratulations on the camera! I'm certainly looking forward to more photos and opinions about the M, be it at high or low ISO



Mar 31, 2013 at 09:44 AM
Mescalamba
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p.669 #3 · p.669 #3 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Its not bad at high ISO, simply expose right and dont do anything stupid.. Like 5D all-over again..


Mar 31, 2013 at 01:03 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.669 #4 · p.669 #4 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Joe CONGRATS......

Thanks Joe and Joakim. I had to take the girl on her fathers when I saw it the texture on her coat and the overal shape her and her father made was cool on its on but then throw in I was taking them reading the menu at Henri's with a Henri...



Mar 31, 2013 at 01:21 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.669 #5 · p.669 #5 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Mescalamba wrote:
Its not bad at high ISO, simply expose right and dont do anything stupid.. Like 5D all-over again..


Yes I would agree that underexposing with a CMOS (pushing) is not a good idea. Expose a bit to the right and you should be fine. Not like the MM there is room to pull back in the shoulder but a lot of noise in the toe. So underexposing is a problem just like with the 5D. 5DII and 5DIII. I wouldn't say its poor just don't push it. Don't fear 3200 or 6400 ISO its better than 1600 pushed a stop to 3200 or two stops to 6400.



Mar 31, 2013 at 01:26 PM
joe88
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p.669 #6 · p.669 #6 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Thanks Joakim & Allen.

Sorry guys, I don't really agree that we cannot underexpose with CMOS, maybe you have issues with Canon CMOS but I have zero issues pushing my RX1 sensor 3 to 4 stops or even 5 stops to IS 25600 and no banding. And I pushed only one stop with the M240 from ISO1600 to slightly above 3200, not even close to 2 stops to ISO6400. However I agree with you all, better to expose for the scene accurately. BTW, I'm not a fan of exposing to the right, it seems to be an internet myth? You lose color accuracy amongst other issues. For example, read here http://chromasoft.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-expose-to-right-is-just-plain-wrong.html








Mar 31, 2013 at 02:10 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.669 #7 · p.669 #7 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Joe,
I shoot in low light with my 5DIIs all the time and I have found that if you underexpose even a little with it I get really bad noise and banding in the darker areas. I have a lot of success with my 5DIIs working in low light I shoot all the time at 3200 and 6400 ISO but only if I don't underexpose which is quite the opposite of my MM.

Joe when I shoot corporate events even when I'm using strobe I will still usually shoot at high ISO and I defuse the strobe and gel the strobe to match the room light temp and keep it right over camera and use it as true fill a stop to a stop in a half down from the available. I can get great 13 X 19s from the stuff I shoot but if I underexpose the noise in especially in the areas down a couple stops is usually not acceptable to me. But you can pull back the highlights which there is some head room with. I do think the term exposing tot he right is very misleading because if you nail the exposure you have a lot of room with CMOS images at high ISO but I would never recommend in those low light situations to under expose. Try it. I have never shot with the M but if the sensor is like the one in my Canon classic 5D, 5DIIs or the 5DIII which all I have shot with then this is what I have found to be true.



Mar 31, 2013 at 02:45 PM
rscheffler
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p.669 #8 · p.669 #8 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


I agree with Joe. While my experience with the RX1 was fairly brief, I did shoot a fair amount at or above ISO 1600 and found it was never an issue to push those files even more in LR, if needed. Of course luminance noise increased, but there was never any indication of banding.

It's quite disappointing to see this is still the case with the M. But, I am really interested to see how malleable the files are between ISO 200-800 and how quickly banding becomes evident in this range when files are pushed.

Looking forward to your results, Joe!



Mar 31, 2013 at 03:04 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.669 #9 · p.669 #9 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


rscheffler wrote:
I agree with Joe. While my experience with the RX1 was fairly brief, I did shoot a fair amount at or above ISO 1600 and found it was never an issue to push those files even more in LR, if needed. Of course luminance noise increased, but there was never any indication of banding.

It's quite disappointing to see this is still the case with the M. But, I am really interested to see how malleable the files are between ISO 200-800 and how quickly banding becomes evident in this range when files are pushed.

Looking forward to your results, Joe!


I guess it just depends on the sensor then because my 8 years with the 5D then 5DII and 5DII have shown me something very different with those CMOS sensors.



Mar 31, 2013 at 03:08 PM
rscheffler
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p.669 #10 · p.669 #10 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Allen, yes, it does seem to boil down to the sensors. A frustrating aspect of being a Canon shooter is that the 5D series banding is not necessarily indicative of all Canon CMOS sensors from the same timeframe, and even more so, is to see the progress made by Sony remain unmatched by Canon. Dark tone banding is one of the primary reasons I avoided the 5D cameras, including the 5DIII. As I write this, I've grabbed a few 1DX ISO 3200 files from a recent event and have pushed them 2 and 3 stops in LR. There is no indication of banding anywhere.

Back when the 5DII was new, many questioned the existence of the 1DsIII, which the 5DII pretty much matched or exceeded in all major specs. IIRC, one of the few image quality differentiators between the two was the lack of pattern banding from the 1DsIII files when pushed aggressively in post.



Mar 31, 2013 at 03:50 PM
 

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Gary Clennan
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p.669 #11 · p.669 #11 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Is the banding mainly a result of the sensor design? Would some sort of firmware update remedy the situation? Just trying to understand the factors at play here...


Mar 31, 2013 at 04:22 PM
Mescalamba
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p.669 #12 · p.669 #12 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


joe88 wrote:
Thanks Joakim & Allen.

Sorry guys, I don't really agree that we cannot underexpose with CMOS, maybe you have issues with Canon CMOS but I have zero issues pushing my RX1 sensor 3 to 4 stops or even 5 stops to IS 25600 and no banding. And I pushed only one stop with the M240 from ISO1600 to slightly above 3200, not even close to 2 stops to ISO6400. However I agree with you all, better to expose for the scene accurately. BTW, I'm not a fan of exposing to the right, it seems to be an internet myth? You lose
...Show more

Its not internet myth, it just works for certain cams. You lose color accuracy only when you dont know how to correct it (ofc its not that easy as it might seem ).

If one has thing like RX1, you simple dont need to worry. Its Sony, you can do crazy stuff with exposure. Even more when you have "native" Nikon sensor, like D3s. But if you have for example Fuji S5 or Kodak SLR/n, you will pretty soon figure, that reasonable over-exposure is your friend (especially in SLR/n case, heavy shadow banding). Same goes to old 5D or 5DMK2. Yea and A900 profits from bit of over-exposing too (noisy shadows).

Just cause something is written on da interwebz doesnt mean its same for every camera. Each camera needs to be learned. Sensors are unique and manufacturers approach is different.

I saw so many ppl failed and still see them failing, cause they simply dont learn own camera. And processing, that has huge impact these days too.

M240 doesnt have Sony sensor, so dont treat it like if it had. Its not about making your camera fail, its about making it work, which obviously is harder.



Mar 31, 2013 at 04:24 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.669 #13 · p.669 #13 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread



M9 Biogon 25 by edward karaa, on Flickr



Mar 31, 2013 at 05:23 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.669 #14 · p.669 #14 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Thank you Andrew and lenticular for your kind words.

Great stuff from everyone!

Joe, congratulations for your new M!



Mar 31, 2013 at 05:31 PM
rscheffler
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p.669 #15 · p.669 #15 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread



Mescalamba wrote:
M240 doesnt have Sony sensor, so dont treat it like if it had. Its not about making your camera fail, its about making it work, which obviously is harder.


This is the M8/M9 thread! The M9 was rated the worst FF sensor by DXO and the M8 with its IR problems... there is also the occurrence of random banding, flaky SD card compatibility... Everyone here is very familiar with working harder with their Leica cameras.

At least for me, some of the disappointment with preproduction M images was the realization M image quality didn't appear to be a clear fix for the M9's shortcomings. It certainly addresses many functional problems with the M9, but in terms of overall image quality, it's still not looking to be as clearcut. The M's more malleable files and better colour sound promising, but if there is pattern banding hidden in all of them, at any ISO (to be determined by Joe ), then it's not the sure thing I was hoping it would be.

Gary: Hopefully someone with imaging sensor experience can weigh in. All I can draw from this is that underlying pattern banding was pretty bad in the Leica-released preproduction files shot with early firmware and progressively improved through firmware updates approaching official release. On LUF there were some comments by beta testers that cameras had to be sent back late in the testing phase for some sort of hardware update, so it's possible there were component changes, but we don't know exactly what those changes were. Whether this will continue with the production M...? I'm certain there will be firmware updates. What is not certain is whether Leica will silently introduce hardware improvements.

Over on LUF, at least one DNG file from a production M shot at low ISO has been made available. I haven't seen an obvious tendency towards banding when pushing this file a few stops. But it's only one file.

And perhaps a couple M9 images... sorry I haven't posted much recently, but am working on some new images from the weekend. In the meantime, from a visit with friends:












M9 & 21 Lux.

For the concerned parents... we're just joking around here and he didn't drink the beer! I liked the mischievous look on his face in the first one, and in the second image he's showing off the water in his glass, just before spilling it all over himself.


Andrew: I think I know what you mean regarding the two versions of Noctilux. BTW, are you still married?
Edward: my condolences!



Mar 31, 2013 at 05:45 PM
bruniroquai
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p.669 #16 · p.669 #16 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Color or Black and White?



federo BY/N por Bruno Gracia, en Flickr



federo color por Bruno Gracia, en Flickr



Marķa By/N por Bruno Gracia, en Flickr



Marķa K64 por Bruno Gracia, en Flickr



Mar 31, 2013 at 07:34 PM
CVickery
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p.669 #17 · p.669 #17 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


bruniroquai wrote:
Color or Black and White?
...


I like the first in B&W , but the green eyes on the second really make the shot.



Mar 31, 2013 at 07:36 PM
Ajay C
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p.669 #18 · p.669 #18 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


Bruno, B&W on the first, color on the 2nd.
Nice shots Edward, Ron

Edward, my condolences to you and your family.



Mar 31, 2013 at 07:38 PM
Ajay C
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p.669 #19 · p.669 #19 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


So, the UPS truck stopped by yesterday, dropped off the new M.

Some initial impressions-

Good ergonomics, better responsiveness, elegant menu etc. are all there as already been reported elsewhere.
Improved DR over the M9.
Colors are more neutral compared to the M9.
Higher DR + neutral colors make DNG image output very flat (good in my opinion).
AWB needs firmware updates. DNG's straight out of the camera have strong yellow/orange cast.
Multi-field metering is somewhat funky.

Need to play with high ISO's, LV yet. All images shot with 35 FLE @ base ISO-200, LR4.4. I can upload DNG's if any wants to play with them. Post-processed these images as I would with my M9 files.

Full set: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjExZ8bW



























ISO200 + 3.5 stop push:







Mar 31, 2013 at 08:09 PM
Ajay C
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p.669 #20 · p.669 #20 · Leica M/X/T Picture Thread


A quick and dirty trip to SEP2. (Leica M / SX35 FLE)








Mar 31, 2013 at 09:09 PM
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