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Archive 2010 · SRAW usage

  
 
photomarvin
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · SRAW usage


I do mainly general event work...I shot mRaw on my 7D all the time...for me it's the perfect size and quality.


Jun 09, 2010 at 11:13 AM
stanj
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · SRAW usage


jchin wrote:
By the way, are you sure Canon is doing some post-processing when saving them as sRAW and not just dropping some sensor pixels from being saved?


I know it for sure. It's my job description.



Jun 09, 2010 at 12:02 PM
Nill Toulme
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · SRAW usage


Stan (or others)... can you summarize the tradeoffs for us? I.e., in what ways other than pixel count is an sRAW or mRAW less useful or flexible than the full size RAW file? And in what ways are those same files better or more flexible than in-camera jpgs?

Nill



Jun 09, 2010 at 01:15 PM
jchin
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · SRAW usage


stanj wrote:
I know it for sure. It's my job description.


Can you educate us? How and/or what is done in-camera to create the sRAW that is "not good" for the image?



Jun 09, 2010 at 01:22 PM
deepbluejh
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · SRAW usage


Look for yourself. sRAW images are clearly less sharp than their full RAW counterparts. That doesn't make sRAW bad, it just makes it less good than full RAW. Then again, sRAW has been a compromise format from the beginning so it should be no surprise.


Jun 09, 2010 at 01:32 PM
jojomon11
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · SRAW usage


I use sraw now coz I get better FPS and I post all my shots online, and never print them

Phil



Jun 09, 2010 at 02:17 PM
Nill Toulme
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · SRAW usage


But it's a compromise in ways beyond just size... that's what I would like to see articulated. IOW, if a 10MP Mark IV mRAW file (I don't know if that's the actual size, just made that up) were just like a full RAW instead of it's 10MP instead of 18MP, OK, it would just be less resolution and that might be fine. But I'm hearing that's is less than that... that the compromises are more that. So... how so, and how does this weigh as against shooting jpg when we could otherwise do nicely with less resolution and a smaller file size but still want all the general benefits of RAW?

Nill



Jun 09, 2010 at 02:18 PM
sirimiri
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · SRAW usage


I've shot sRAW (forgot which option) when I had to shoot an event and my contact needed instant (that evening immediately after the event) turnaround so dictated that I use their card and immediately return it with JPGs - they would cull and process if needed. I was able to have sRAW and JPGs co-habitate that same, limited card.

Later I was able to get the sRAW back for my own archives. But I've never shot anything but RAW before or since then.

deepbluejh wrote:
For less-important parts of the wedding (preparations, reception, etc), I shoot sRAW1. For more-important parts (ceremony, portraits), it's full RAW.




Jun 09, 2010 at 03:56 PM
michael49
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · SRAW usage


Nill Toulme wrote:
But it's a compromise in ways beyond just size... that's what I would like to see articulated. IOW, if a 10MP Mark IV mRAW file (I don't know if that's the actual size, just made that up) were just like a full RAW instead of it's 10MP instead of 18MP, OK, it would just be less resolution and that might be fine. But I'm hearing that's is less than that... that the compromises are more that. So... how so, and how does this weigh as against shooting jpg when we could otherwise do nicely with less resolution and a
...Show more

The few times I've used sRAW on the 5d2 I've been more than impressed with the results. I prefer sRAW over jpeg as I have better PP control in LR.



Jun 09, 2010 at 03:59 PM
stanj
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · SRAW usage


Nill Toulme wrote:
But it's a compromise in ways beyond just size... that's what I would like to see articulated. IOW, if a 10MP Mark IV mRAW file (I don't know if that's the actual size, just made that up) were just like a full RAW instead of it's 10MP instead of 18MP, OK, it would just be less resolution and that might be fine. But I'm hearing that's is less than that... that the compromises are more that. So... how so, and how does this weigh as against shooting jpg when we could otherwise do nicely with less resolution and a
...Show more

For starters, anytime you remove data, you're removing information, quality, regardless how good it is. BR video compression, JPEG, all that. Specifically about sRaw, on the sensor you start with each pixel having one value: R, G, B. Four hardware pixels make out one full RGB pixel; the way cameras are marketed, a 16MP camera has 16 million photo sites, but actually only 4M discreet RGB values; the other ones are interpolated. This step is called debeyer, as it removes the Beyer pattern. This step is where smoothness of lines or moire is determined - and where the best noise reduction and sharpening can happen, because you have the raw pixels in front of you. This is how ACR6 is better than ACR5 - the debeyer is completely new, better, more sophisticated.

Now, sRaw gives you a debeyered image. A 16MP camera will give you a 4MP sRaw image (mRaw is an interesting tweener, but the differences in approach are mostly irrelevant). In the Canon sRaw files, each pixel has an RGB value, not just either R or G or B, like in real raw. Therefore, one may think that an sRaw image would be 1/4 the file size of a raw, yet it is about 3/4 the file size of a true raw - because it carries 3x as much information "per pixel". But we have already lost information: we carry only 3/4 of the information.

The other problem is _how_ this information was lost, or rather, how the debeyer step was performed. Take a modern day Nehalem class machine and open an image in ACR6 or your choice of raw converter. You'll wait about 2s for that. The machine draws about 60-200W power, depending on what you have in it. In contrast, your camera does say eight such conversions per second. Granted, it has special hardware for this task only, but still - shortcuts need to be taken, hardcoded decisions must be made. Your computer has more time to deal with this - it can make much more sophisticated decisions. When you have an sRaw file, this decision making is gone; all it can do is "classic" noise reduction / sharpening, on top of the debeyer. Since the step that has the most impact on image quality is performed in camera, with a technology put in stone at the time of the release of the camera, additionally using a technology that takes shortcuts, you're stuck with something that's mediocre. Maybe sufficient for your needs, but far from optimal.

It's no wonder that sRaw files are less noisy than their raw counterparts - they are 1/4 the size. But do this experiment: take a high contrast, typical night scene shot at ISO 3200, shoot it sRaw, and then raw opened in ACR6, and then shrunk down to 1/4 its size using Bicubic or Bicubic Sharper (just to keep it simple). Then decide which one is better. Unless you can create a synthetic case that trips a bug in the raw converter, the full raw shrunk will always win.

Given that sRaw files aren't proportionally smaller than raw files (they aren't 1/4 the file size), the only real benefit of sRaw files is for reasons of memory pressure during processing (the image will be 1/4 the size, which is a huge CPU saving), as well as processing time, since the debeyer step - which accounts for the lion's share of the time of a decode - is skipped.

I'm not passing judgement on people who use it - I know that Canon added it for a reason, responding to a market request. Doesn't mean the market actually understands what it's asking for, or rather getting.



Jun 09, 2010 at 05:03 PM
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