Travis Harris wrote:
Here are some examples from last night...
Increase your ambient exposure a stop or two so you can see the backgrounds.
Gel your flash so it matches the ambient light.
Get the flash off camera (and way off camera, not just on a bracket).
Use more than one flash.
Ok cool, your first sentence threw me. You said lower his ISO when in fact he should be increasing it. If you have a 5D, 5DII 1DsMKIII don't fear higher ISOs. Just nail your exposure and use a little noise ninja.
I usually see what the situation/ambient light is giving me again its more a quality of light not quantity, though that the later is important too. Sometime depending on the situation I will shoot available/ambient light. If the light isn't right I will use a strobe defused and gelled to the color of the light in the room and either use it for fill (1 stop under the ambient) The strobe is fill and when I'm using it as fill its directly over camera. Or sometimes I will set the strobe for one stop hotter than the available/ambient and expose for the strobe thus the ambient going one stop lower than my strobe and my exposure thus the ambient is becoming the fill.
I shoot with fast primes.
24L
35L
85L
200 2L
And I always shoot raw.
I always try to make my work look natural and I like to keep it simple. The only shot that I posted that doesn't have the exact look I go for is the shot with Janet Reno and the was a shot that is a shot where the strobe is the main gelled and the available/ambient is one stop lower than strobe and exposure.
In the old film days () I shot with Hasselblads (500c/m's and multiply lit everything. I usually had several assistants with radio controlled strobes and I really prefer the look I can now get. I make more money because I don't have to pay two or three assistants I use less lighting equipment. I don't have to set lights up all over the room and I prefer the results I now get because it looks more natural in my opinion and the most important thing is my clients prefer the results that I now get.
airfrogusmc wrote:
If the light isn't right I will use a strobe defused and gelled to the color of the light in the room and either use it for fill (1 stop under the ambient) The strobe is fill and when I'm using it as fill its directly over camera. Or sometimes I will set the strobe for one stop hotter than the available/ambient and expose for the strobe thus the ambient going one stop lower than my strobe and my exposure thus the ambient is becoming the fill.
What shutter speed do you aim for when doing this with a moving subject?
If I want to get blur like I did with the dancing shot I think that was at 1/15 but usually I shoot at 1/60 or 1/125. When using a 35 or 24 if my subject aren't moving to fast I'll shoot lower sometimes down to 1/30. If I'm shooting with the 200 2L I have shot as low as 1/25 (it has killer IS) as long as the subject isn't moving to much.
I'm specifically talking about when using flash and ambient. Every once in awhile when shooting too slow and too close to ambient, I'll end up with an unintended second curtain sync (or would that be first curtain sync?) kind of effect. I like this for creative dance shots, not so much at other times.
I mean its what the situation will give you. I have no problem shoot at 1/30 if I have to and things are not in motion. Most of what I posted where in very dark rooms. I think some of the available light things were at 3200 ISO 1/40 of a sec at f/2. Thats not a bright room.
airfrogusmc wrote:
Ok cool, your first sentence threw me. You said lower his ISO when in fact he should be increasing it. If you have a 5D, 5DII 1DsMKIII don't fear higher ISOs. Just nail your exposure and use a little noise ninja.
I assume you're responding to me,. If so, then NO, this is wrong. Higher iso will require a faster shutter. Hence, less ambient light if one is using a single, key flash. - As Travis is, for better or worse.
Read the very first response, above, from Steady Hand. He's saying the same thing.
Ever been shooting away at 1/30th with great exposures and then the video guy comes in with his light and you forget to increase your shutter? You end up with a frozen face where your flash hit and a blurred face where it was lit by video light. ARRGGGHH
HUH Thats not right. If you lower your sensitivity or ISO you will only increase the background becoming darker. So you need to make the sensor more sensitive to allow more light and adjust your strobe accordingly. f/2.8 at 1/60 at 1600 ISO and I have my strobe set for 1 stop under that for fill(f/2) and my camera set at f/2.8 at 1/60 why would I want to lower my ISO to 800 if it brings the ambient down to either 1/30 at f/2.8 of 1/60 at f/2? And if I'm letting the ambient go one stop lower than the strobe and camera set at 1/60 at 2.8 and the meter gave the an ambient reading of 1/30 at 2.8 or if you prefer 1/60 at 2 (1600 ISO) buy lowering my ISO my ambient suddenly becomes 1/15 at 2.8 or if you prefer 1/30 at 2 thats one stop darker on the ambient. The ratio between the flash and the ambient has changed by one stop when you take the ISO down one stop thus darkening the room by one stop. You are right you can bring that back by increasing your shutter speed but why would I want to do that when I'm getting into speeds that are 1/15 of a sec. It makes far more sense to just increase ISO. I can get cleaner large prints from properly exposed 3200 ISO images from my 5D than any 400 speed ISO prints the same size from film.
When using a gelled strobe or any strobe when the ambient is important to the shot too, you need to first meter the ambient and then decide on ISO, shutter speeds and aperture based on that info.
tell wrote:
Ever been shooting away at 1/30th with great exposures and then the video guy comes in with his light and you forget to increase your shutter? You end up with a frozen face where your flash hit and a blurred face where it was lit by video light. ARRGGGHH
- Then I'd welcome your thoughts, or alternate approaches, but understand this concept first.
You would welcome his thoughts? When is that going to happen? airfrogusmc demonstrated how it's done with a bunch of event photos, then he explained it. Still you insist he doesn't understand the concept.
The point of dragging the shutter isn't simply to leave the shutter open for the H of it -- it's to raise the ambient. And with TTL you do it however -- drag the shutter, "drag" the ISO, "drag" the aperture. It doesn't matter because TTL flash will adjust after you get your ambient where you want it. It's counterintuitive until you do it.
- Then I'd welcome your thoughts, or alternate approaches, but understand this concept first.
No, I do get it. A stop of light is a stop of light and in this case you are better gaining it through ISO not dragging the shutter.
So if your in a room and your the ambient is say 1/30 at f/2 ISO 1600 and you want to keep the background bright (same density/exposure as 1/30 at f/2) if you LOWER the ISO your going to be in shutter speeds (to allow you any kind of DOF) that will be extremely long and I would not recommend hand holding.
Do the math. If you start where I mentioned at 1600 ISO at 1/30 at f/2 if you lower your ISO to 400 ISO to get the same exposure on the ambient/available you would need an exposure of 1/8 of a sec at f/2. If you want a bit more DOF if you stop down to f/2.8 your shutter speed has no gone to 1/4 sec and f/4 your shutter speed will be at 1/2 sec. Isn't raising the ISO easier and unless you do candids from a monopod (did that in the old film days) a lot safer (ghosting).
I shot with 500 C/Ms ( I know all about "dragging the shutter") for years and didn't we have the luxury of really high ISOs. Even with medium format ISO/ASA films higher than 400 I would stay away from. So I say "drag the ISO".
Nina nice high ISO stuff. Have you ever tried shooting raw? Once you go raw you never go back . It just gives you that much more control over the final image.
But either way, nice high ISO shots and that stuff is not easy to shoot and I have a couple of old 5Ds and I get great high ISO performance. I have shot with 5DII and 6400 is very clean from that camera too. The secret of good, clean, high ISO images is nailing the exposure as you seem to already know. Nice images.
You would welcome his thoughts? When is that going to happen? airfrogusmc demonstrated how it's done with a bunch of event photos, then he explained it. Still you insist he doesn't understand the concept.
The point of dragging the shutter isn't simply to leave the shutter open for the H of it -- it's to raise the ambient. And with TTL you do it however -- drag the shutter, "drag" the ISO, "drag" the aperture. It doesn't matter because TTL flash will adjust after you get your ambient where you want it. It's counterintuitive until you do it.
I would say instead of throwing terms around(dragging the shutter) learn the Law of Reciprocity as it pertains to photography (NOT to be confused with Reciprocity Failure or as Ansel Adams referred to it "The Reciprocity Effect" which applies only to film and the failure of the law of reciprocity with long exposures which can differ from one film emulsion to the other). Some brighter folks than I say The Law of Reciprocity is the real golden rule of photography.
Again, meter the rooms ambient/available light, evaluate the quality of light(experience) then make your exposure decisions based on that information and decide if you need flash and or gels based on that information. I do and it works for me.
Mitchell Carter wrote:
You would welcome his thoughts? When is that going to happen? airfrogusmc demonstrated how it's done with a bunch of event photos, then he explained it. Still you insist he doesn't understand the concept.
The point of dragging the shutter isn't simply to leave the shutter open for the H of it -- it's to raise the ambient. And with TTL you do it however -- drag the shutter, "drag" the ISO, "drag" the aperture. It doesn't matter because TTL flash will adjust after you get your ambient where you want it. It's counterintuitive until you do it.
Let's try this again. (why am I wasting my time?)
You can gain ambient by boosting the iso, and lower the flash, or by slowing the shutter, and leaving the flash alone.
The OP is complaining about offensive grain when setting iso above 400, so he needs to... guess what?
Additionally, airfrogusmc posted examples done with NO FLASH. Get it? The OP is using a lot of flash. That's his preferred style, so he needs to ... can you guess?
Not to mention, slowing the shutter will yield less noise and better colors than bumping the iso. But then you knew that, right?
) I shot with Hasselblads (500c/m's and multiply lit everything. I usually had several assistants with radio controlled strobes and I really prefer the look I can now get. I make more money because I don't have to pay two or three assistants I use less lighting equipment. I don't have to set lights up all over the room and I prefer the results I now get because it looks more natural in my opinion and the most important thing is my clients prefer the results that I now get.
Thats not right. If you lower your sensitivity or ISO you will only increase the background becoming darker. So you need to make the sensor more sensitive to allow more light and adjust your strobe accordingly. f/2.8 at 1/60 at 1600 ISO and I have my strobe set for 1 stop under that for fill(f/2) and my camera set at f/2.8 at 1/60 why would I want to lower my ISO to 800 if it brings the ambient down to either 1/30 at f/2.8 of 1/60 at f/2? And if I'm letting the ambient go one stop lower than the strobe and camera set at 1/60 at 2.8 and the meter gave the an ambient reading of 1/30 at 2.8 or if you prefer 1/60 at 2 (1600 ISO) buy lowering my ISO my ambient suddenly becomes 1/15 at 2.8 or if you prefer 1/30 at 2 thats one stop darker on the ambient. The ratio between the flash and the ambient has changed by one stop when you take the ISO down one stop thus darkening the room by one stop. You are right you can bring that back by increasing your shutter speed but why would I want to do that when I'm getting into speeds that are 1/15 of a sec. It makes far more sense to just increase ISO. I can get cleaner large prints from properly exposed 3200 ISO images from my 5D than any 400 speed ISO prints the same size from film. 
Feb 07, 2010 at 08:50 AM