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ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)
  
 
Samuli Vahonen
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p.909 #1 · p.909 #1 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


dubaiphil, nothing against your color works, but your B&W work seems to be always more interesting - great set! Do you just turn down saturation or use some fancier way to do B&W?



RiverGuy wrote:
There will be a number of new images in my Otus gallery in a few hours. The weekend looks to be good, with good light, so there should be some revealing Otus results by Sunday night.

Thanks for the new samples. Do you happen to have sample of anything shoot from 3-10 meters (9-30 feet) background starts from subject and continues further. I would like to understand relation of in-focus-target contrast vs. blurred background bokeh contrast&structure of the Otus.

Hard to explain, but I like VERY much of my current favorite 50mm (ZE Planar 1.4), and when closed down to f/2.5-2.8 it's "perfect"; optically everything on focus plane is "perfect" and bokeh issues have almost vanished. However I would not mind getting same results at f/2 or even f/1.4 - this is why I'm interested about Otus. If Otus just draws perfectly but doesn't have any character, I'm not sure if it's for me.

ZE-series lenses (majority at least) tends to give nice contrast in-focus and lower contrast in bokeh, which is very nice "feature". Based on samples this far in-focus and bokeh contrast seems to be same, which I find quite weird for Zeiss, but also most of the samples shoot by you and other lucky ones with the new Otus have been f/1.4, and due to too small lens barrels etc. this "feature" doesn't usually work wide open very well.

Hard to explain, but I would like to see some example image in situations like below (all f/2.8 with ZE Planar 1.4) [apologies if I repost some images, can't remember did I post these in 2012]:






Also the first f/2.8 image from 1.4/35 on last page is good example of this rendering style I'm looking for.

Samuli

PS. This is meaningless struggle, I try to find reason to not buy Otus and I'm pretty sure I end up getting it anyway...



Nov 16, 2013 at 07:38 PM
JaKo
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p.909 #2 · p.909 #2 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)








Swinging between 'L' and 'Z'

@ f/2.8







Nov 16, 2013 at 09:11 PM
JaKo
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p.909 #3 · p.909 #3 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


MP50 wide open:








Nov 16, 2013 at 09:15 PM
Ronny _Olsson
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p.909 #4 · p.909 #4 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Great set Samuli and Jack


Nov 16, 2013 at 09:38 PM
GSteve
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p.909 #5 · p.909 #5 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Near Mt. Ida, Arkansas, just past prime time. 13 shot pano, Canon 5D MKII, Zeiss 21/2.8





GSteve 2013




Nov 17, 2013 at 04:21 PM
akul
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p.909 #6 · p.909 #6 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


MP 100



Nov 18, 2013 at 04:57 AM
dubaiphil
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p.909 #7 · p.909 #7 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Great sets, Samuli and Jack.

@ Samuli - thanks - I don't have great colour to work with here in Dubai, but good contrast, shadow and textures. Nik Software Color Efex and Silver Efex for the conversions



Nov 18, 2013 at 05:13 AM
Rodluvan
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p.909 #8 · p.909 #8 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Hello, a few from this weekend

P85 @ 1.4






MP50 @ 2.0



Nov 18, 2013 at 10:54 AM
Ulff
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p.909 #9 · p.909 #9 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


ZE 100 2.0 @f4.0







Nov 18, 2013 at 04:24 PM
nibutto
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p.909 #10 · p.909 #10 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


35/1,4
something different...










































Nov 18, 2013 at 08:12 PM
 

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RiverGuy
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p.909 #11 · p.909 #11 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)




Thanks for the new samples. Do you happen to have sample of anything shoot from 3-10 meters (9-30 feet) background starts from subject and continues further. I would like to understand relation of in-focus-target contrast vs. blurred background bokeh contrast&structure of the Otus.

Hard to explain, but I like VERY much of my current favorite 50mm (ZE Planar 1.4), and when closed down to f/2.5-2.8 it's "perfect"; optically everything on focus plane is "perfect" and bokeh issues have almost vanished. However I would not mind getting same results at f/2 or even f/1.4 - this is why I'm interested about Otus.
...Show more


Samuli,

There are a few images like you want to see in my Farmer's Mkt gallery that I just happened to do with the Otus as it was all i had after Saturday morning's shoot of a pottery kiln opening.

http://danmacdonald.zenfolio.com/knoxfarmersmarketnov16_013/slideshow

I have another gallery of a good many images from the Otus, but it was for a friend's business (the pottery) and hasn't been cleared for the public.

I think I'm going out very early Wednesday here to do some shooting in the Great Smoky Mtns park. I will keep your wishes in mind and try to deliver you some images that should match up in content the sort of images you showed from your 50 1.4, a lens I used to own.

I too prefer stopping down. I only had the f 1.4 images early on because there are so many "shoot only wide open" fanatics in these forums. Some of them are under the impression that the only advantage to an f/2 or f/1.4 lens is to shoot at that widest aperture. They repeatedly drop comments that indicate they actually think the quality of an image shot stopped down to, say, f 2.8 or 3.2 on a 1.4 or 2.0 lens is no different in bokeh, IQ, etc, from 2.8 or 3.2 shot on a much cheaper lens of far less quality. You obviously don't suffer from that delusion. I think with the Otus I'll end up shooting most of my outdoor subjects (non studio, non landscape) in the 2.0 to 3.2 range, by the feel of the images I'm seeing so far. After the initial images for the Otus gallery I'll probably never shoot at 1.4 again and rarely at 1.6.

Look for new images in my main Otus gallery in 2-3 days. You'll see some directly aimed at your needs.

Also in a few days I'll post some overall comments on the Otus as I have experienced the lens. At the moment I'm encountering significant vignetting at 1.4 to 1.8. I can correct it easily, but the amount of correction necessary bothers me. I have yet to grasp all the variables (including me) in this, but I will in another week or so of work. I confess I'm not used to using a normal range lens as a walkaround candid lens shot at very wide apertures. For four years now I've shot the Coastal Optics 60 APO as my main medium size object lens in my artifact photography. That's a very high level lens, but it's f/4 and I tend to shoot it at 5.6 to 8 when I stack images, and 8 to 14 when I take just one shot of the artifact. Obviously, it lives on a big tripod. For candid events, it's the AF Nikons, the 85G, the 200VR, the 70-200VRII. A completely different world.

So this is new to me, and it's taking some time to get the feel of the Otus.

Images at 2.0 and beyond are fantastic, and there is indeed a 3-D medium format look to them, as Lloyd says. This may be the one manual focus lens I would actually recommend for event photography. The focus action is vastly better than on the regular Zeiss lens lineup. I'm thinking the keeper rate for the Otus for any given photographer doing candids is going to be at least 2-3 times higher than with the 135/2, which is a lens I love.

The additional bonus is an outrageous ability to crop in all areas of the focus plane and get a publishable final image. Yeah, we've said that before with previous lenses, but trust me, this is a new world. Look at the jazz singer couple (with bass) on the corner in my farmer's market gallery. I follow it with the lady singer isolated in a crop. The quality of that crop is just incredible to me. You'll see several instances in the Otus gallery where I've done the same thing. This can be critical to an event photographer. They can't always choose their framing, and they may have seconds to set up the shot or lose it forever. To be able to go into the image in PP and pull a publishable photo out of 20-30-40 percent of the original content is a very powerful advantage. With the Otus, you have to tell the viewer it's a crop.

Look for more posts and gallery additions later in the week. Those are beautifully clear shots with the 50, by the way.

--Dan

http://danmacdonald.zenfolio.com/carlzeiss55otus/slideshow



Nov 19, 2013 at 12:22 AM
rji2goleez
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p.909 #12 · p.909 #12 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


35/2 ZE wide open.

My brother's new pup.







Nov 19, 2013 at 01:13 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.909 #13 · p.909 #13 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


RiverGuy wrote:
Samuli,

There are a few images like you want to see in my Farmer's Mkt gallery that I just happened to do with the Otus as it was all i had after Saturday morning's shoot of a pottery kiln opening.

http://danmacdonald.zenfolio.com/knoxfarmersmarketnov16_013/slideshow

Thanks for these, I have been hitting F5 all weekend so I did see them already

RiverGuy wrote:
I think I'm going out very early Wednesday here to do some shooting in the Great Smoky Mtns park. I will keep your wishes in mind and try to deliver you some images that should match up in content the sort of images you showed from your 50 1.4, a lens I used to own.

Wow, I spent few years in USA (Milwaukee, WI / Columbia, SC / York, PA) due to my work and Great Smoky Mtns park was my favorite place. Now I really envy you; Otus in my absolute favorite place in USA Your effort is very much appreciated.

RiverGuy wrote:
I too prefer stopping down. I only had the f 1.4 images early on because there are so many "shoot only wide open" fanatics in these forums. Some of them are under the impression that the only advantage to an f/2 or f/1.4 lens is to shoot at that widest aperture. They repeatedly drop comments that indicate they actually think the quality of an image shot stopped down to, say, f 2.8 or 3.2 on a 1.4 or 2.0 lens is no different in bokeh, IQ, etc, from 2.8 or 3.2 shot on a much cheaper lens of far less
...Show more
Gear forums tend to be this way. However if one is not very picky about image quality and/or can use defects artistically beneficial way (I do this sometimes, example), I do see their point from their perspective. One of the biggest issues shooting wide open for me is that the bokeh, from quantity point of view, isn't usually so much different from more optimal apertures, but quality of bokeh can vary a lot. In end of this post I added two photos to demonstrate this.

BTW. If you haven't read Roger Cicala's resolution tests, might be worth checking - seems that also sharpness is not as high level in f/2 than it's from f/2.8 to f/5.6 (thou f/2 numbers indicate that unless doing 100% pixel peeping w/ 36Mpix camera that it's near perfect from f/2 to f/8 what comes to sharpness)
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/11/otus-is-scharf

RiverGuy wrote:
I think with the Otus I'll end up shooting most of my outdoor subjects (non studio, non landscape) in the 2.0 to 3.2 range, by the feel of the images I'm seeing so far. After the initial images for the Otus gallery I'll probably never shoot at 1.4 again and rarely at 1.6......I have yet to grasp all the variables (including me) in this, but I will in another week or so of work. I confess I'm not used to using a normal range lens as a walkaround candid lens shot at very wide apertures.

If you are not familiar shooting very wide apertures, few ideas about situations where I would prefer to shoot large aperture IF there would be no optical issues:
- short-DOF landscapes (=subject quite far away like 5-20m/15-60feet), have to be careful to position camera so that subjects line up so that they are in DOF. Examples: 1.4/35@f/1.4, 1.4/85@f/2.8.
- "full body environmental portraits", more referring to object size than subject matter. Examples: 1.4/85@f/1.4, 1.4/50@f/1.4 (without vignetting this would be much better in my eyes).

RiverGuy wrote:
At the moment I'm encountering significant vignetting at 1.4 to 1.8. I can correct it easily, but the amount of correction necessary bothers me.

Vignetting or how I some case call it "hot spotting" can be really annoying, very much depending how it appears. Personally I was quite disappointed, when I heard that Zeiss compromised from their original plan to use 82mm filter with Otus - if they make lens so huge, why in earth to save few mm and have rather large vignetting. I'm sure people many people say "but vignetting suits my subjects", however I would prefer to add it in post processing since it won't suit to all subjects; and if one shoots like me (subjects quite often positioned outside the 1/3rd "lines") then it almost never suits the photo well.

With most modern Zeiss lenses it seems vignetting is worse on large distances, I wonder if that that is the case with Otus as well? For example both Makro-Planar have hideous vignetting at f/2 @ infinity, but are quite ok with close-ups and makro.

RiverGuy wrote:
Those are beautifully clear shots with the 50, by the way.

Yep, very nice clarity, brilliance and pretty well controlled bokeh @ f/2.8, at least with 20Mpix sensor cameras this lens is the best investment I can imagine (assuming user is able to understand focus shift and mitigate it).





Example of 1.4/50 Planar - bokeh actually doesn't change (in quantity) much between f/2.8 and f/1.4, even bokeh should be much much more blurry since there is 2 stop difference. In addition spherical aberration cause small contrast in subject as well. Shoot from about 2m/6feet distance. [Note! this image would not worked @ f/1.4 even I would have had optically perfect f/1.4; the branches in front of the vertical part of tree trunk would not be enough in focus @ f/1.4]

f/2.8

f/1.4


Samuli



Nov 19, 2013 at 05:55 AM
RiverGuy
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p.909 #14 · p.909 #14 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli,

I tried a point by point response to your comments, but the interface here is just too difficult. No preview button makes it really hard to see what I'm doing.

Points:

1. I shoot at wide apertures all the time, but with AF candid/portrait/event lenses like the Nikon 85G, the 200VR and the 70-200VRII. What I don't have experience with is shooting wide apertures in the 50-60m range. And with those lenses in my lineup, it's insane to try to do candid portraits or fast moving pubic events (parades, protests, etc) with an MF lens. If you don't get the shot, you don't get the shot.

2. Most important: I am getting powerful vignetting in the f 1.4 to 1.8 aperture range with the Otus. Lloyd says he didn't see it back in the spring and fall when he was working with a prototype. I didn't see it in his images he published. I've just contacted him to ask if that prototype was 77 mm. I believe it was.

3. I may still be doing something wrong. If I am, I'll gladly fall on my sword. I have serious neurosurgery for a good fake excuse.... But Saturday's session which preceded the Farmer's Mkt session was the one with the terrible vignetting. It occurred not at infinity, but in that 1.4 to 1.8 aperture range at close distances, all of the shots in the 6ft to 20 foot range, more or less. The LCD let me know immediately that something was wrong, of course, so I was desperately trying in camera vignette control and in camera D lighting to make the shots look right. When I do these controls, they hold over in RAW files in Capture NX2. Apparently they don't in Lloyd's PP process, which is completely different from mine. But when I turn off the vignette control in PP, boom, the images go back to looking like they were shot in a tunnel.

But every image I took in that same kiln opening session that was done at 2.0 and beyond-- especially at 2.2 and beyond-- was perfect. The only variable was the aperture setting. The amount of vignetting which I got at 1.8 and the very slight amount I occasionally got at 2.0 were easily corrected with no lasting effects on the image.

I just haven't had to deal with vignetting in a very long time. Later this week I'll force myself out into the cold and get your comparison shots you wanted, and make a concentrated study on this vignetting issue to see if it's me, or if your initial concerns about the 77 mm compromise have proven true. For what you and i do, it's not an issue. At 2.0 and beyond, the Otus is as good as it gets.

Dan



Nov 19, 2013 at 03:58 PM
RiverGuy
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p.909 #15 · p.909 #15 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


A follow up:

Samuli and I are now doing our "thinking out loud" by PMs and email, to save readers here the agony of witnessing my thought processes on the new Otus. I'll keep my posts here much more streamlined and biased toward photos.

But to anyone who might be following this discussion, I've now learned, or been reminded, that the prototype Lloyd Chambers used was an 82mm version, not the 77mm we have in the production lens. This may or may not be why I've consistently had heavy vignetting at f 1.4 to 1.8, but I will do my best in the next few days to try and knock off every variable until we have an answer.

Thanks to Samuli for guiding my thinking on this....

DM



Nov 19, 2013 at 09:11 PM
carstenw
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p.909 #16 · p.909 #16 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I am interested and have been reading everything!

How about starting a new thread: Debugging the Otus



Nov 19, 2013 at 09:46 PM
RiverGuy
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p.909 #17 · p.909 #17 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


carstenw wrote:
I am interested and have been reading everything!

How about starting a new thread: Debugging the Otus



Carstenw,

Thanks, Really....

We might very well do that, but first I'll do tomorrow's very regimented series of tests. All the suspect apertures, with the hood on, with the hood off, maybe even with my Zeiss 77 mm filter replaced by either a 77mm B&W or 77mm Heliopan thin filter, both of which I have on hand. No point in starting a thread if the problem is me instead of the lens.

I have also been in touch with Lloyd and informed him of all this. I keep saying "I would love for it to be me, and I'll gladly fall on my sword for being a dummy." At 64 and calloused by various humans and still groggy from last year's 10 hour neurosurgery, humility comes much easier...

But I am still left with the fact that all my shots done beyond f 2.2 on Saturday were beautiful, while most, if not all the shots done from 1.4 to 1.8, and a few at 2.0, exhibited moderately heavy to very heavy vignetting. At 1.4 it was severe. Same D800E, same distance range, same camera settings. Same light, etc. The hood was on for all the shots, the Zeiss 77m filter was on for all the shots. Moreover, some of the wide aperture shots with the vignetting were bracketed before and after with f 2.2 to 3.5 shots that came out perfect. The planet was circling the Earth in the same manner, as far as I know...

Lloyd's review was based on an 82mm prototype. He is getting a production model. How soon, I don't know. But he will get my full test results sometime tomorrow when I get it all processed. If tomorrow's results reinforce what I experienced this past weekend, I will beg Lloyd to rerun his whole initial evaluation with the 77mm production lens. He did apparently experience some vignetting with the proto, but I don't think it was anything like what I saw in my files in the past few days.

Stay tuned....

DM



Nov 19, 2013 at 11:16 PM
carstenw
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p.909 #18 · p.909 #18 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I would be very interested in a wide open shot with no filter, focused at various distances, just to establish a baseline for the vignetting. Maybe Zeiss simply made a mistake with how large a filter could be put on the lens? It sounds inconceivable, but these results are quite dramatic.


Nov 19, 2013 at 11:31 PM
RiverGuy
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p.909 #19 · p.909 #19 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


carstenw,

With Samuil's help I've now looked at several hundred Otus images on a number of forums and threads. I've seen close to the level of vignetting I'm getting at 1.4 to 1.8 before adjustment, but nothing like my initial raw files.

Several experienced photographers are posting 1.4 shots that have bright corners and edges and show virtually no vignetting. I can get that, but only after hammering the images in PP.

So I have messages out to several people asking them what they're doing.

Everybody is posting beautiful images at 2.5, 3.2, 4, 4.5, etc. Well, I'm getting beautiful images at those apertures, too.

So I've decided to forgo any round of tests today. The sun is too bright anyway. If everyone else is doing the wide aperture shots with some sort of processing, I'll find out what it is. if not, then I have some sort of problem specific to me and my lens, although I can't imagine what it would be since there must be dozens of photographers out there shooting the Otus with the Zeiss filter and the supplied hood, which is the only external variables I'm applying.

I don't want to take up space here and drag potential Otus owners through something that is specific to me and not all the copies of the Otus out there....

Dan



Nov 20, 2013 at 02:12 PM
carstenw
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p.909 #20 · p.909 #20 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I guess all that remains then is to test without filter and hood, separately and together. If one of those is not the cause, there is presumably a lens issue. Let us know once you have figured it out, I would be very interested to know what it was. I could understand If it is the filter, but while it wouldn't make a difference for me, it might affect some people's workflow.


Nov 20, 2013 at 03:43 PM
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