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ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)
  
 
Samuli Vahonen
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p.72 #1 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


adamdewilde wrote:
Understood, based on the response you gave me, and the response you gave Wayne above. I would have to say that the 50 MP ZE does not lack in that department, if the lighting is right. The 35 seems to do this a lot more then both the 50 MP ZE and the 85 ZE, though I've gotten results like this from my 100 MP ZE. But as to not blame it on OOF areas, I've seen it stopped down to f/11 because of working distances. I have yet to use the 85 ZE in that way, where I can
...Show more

Even there never was consensus in various 3D threads we have had, there is generic consensus that this 3D-look generated by lens (within people who had consensus that there is lens generated 3D), can be more easily produced with shorter focal lengths. On longer focal lengths, e.g. Contax 2/100 I have rarely seen in samples that the subject itself has clear shape and volume, but when it happens and the effect is enhanced with 2/100 C/Y bokeh images look really alive. With ZE lenses I have, I would say that the 35ZE is easiest lens to produce what I want, but for my subjects and shooting style I favor short teles and 35ZE is quote wide for me, or let's say used to be quite wide - shooting with 21ZE has changed things quite a lot.


adamdewilde wrote:
Since I shoot mainly people/portraits, I would have to say that what I'm looking for in a lens, is something that is sharp wide open, or close to it, so I can get ears out of focus and eyes in focus if even just ever so slightly. Canon lenses can do this, but what I've noticed is that when I shoot portraits with canon lenses (and I've said this before), it's like looking through a slightly dirty glass at a computer monitor, you really cannot make out the subtle details. Whereas with zeiss, it's like you're looking through a square
...Show more

If you want lens, which is sharp wide open and close distances (=portrait distances) then 85ZE is not your lens. It can give a lot for full body portraits from rendering style perspective, and at that distance it's definitely sharp as well, but has some issues, e.g. bokeh highlight quality (shape is OK mostly, but how the light is distributed in bokeh circles could be better). While I tested 85ZE after purchasing I took some self portraits to adjust the lightning for shooting portrait of my friend (they did not come out fine due to focus shift and not so great rendering close to minimum focus distance), so apologies for not having weezintrumpete like model...



(shoot at f/1.4, for 3D look should have been shot f/2.8-3.5 to include whole object in focus, including sides of object not just front facing side/part of it)


adamdewilde wrote:
Looking at Brainiacs photos, and reading carstenw's description, I would have to say that the 50 MP ZE does do this, but Samuli you'll know this in a few days when you've used your lens.


I can see "positive things" on your horse photos with 50MP, but the effect is really subtle - does 50MP need larger image size to show this properly?? LIke stated many times before, I questioned the flat rendering due to lack of samples showing the look. I'll really hope it's there, and it was just lack of proper sample images.

I'm really hoping to get the lens today, they said in store it will arrive today or Monday. Thou I don't have time to go shooting due to major go-live event at work going on.


adamdewilde wrote:
I'm thinking that if I can get a 50 1.4 ZE at a good price, I may try it out. However, if it's anything like the 85ZE, then it may not be worth buying.. Samuli I'll wait till you get the lens and give your full report


Hmmm, based on what you have written above and earlier I don't think it's for you. I would say 1.4/50 is very similar to 1.4/85 with few exeptions;
- less sharp wide open
- busier bokeh (also taking shorter focal length into account, talking about quality not quantity) & can have swirly bokeh
- less focus shift than in 1.4/85
Otherwise very similar, for example having similar "long focus throw" on normal shooting distances as 85 does.


I doubt there will be full report. I really hope it's good on image rendering issues what I have been suspecting there not to be due to lack of sample images missing. If it really is flat as very little number of good sample pictures indicate, I'll try to arrange some test setting showing it on Wayne's wished side-by-side shooting situation, even thou I'm not sure do I ever want to criticize the Holy Cow since it's defense forces are so strong.

Samuli



May 29, 2010 at 06:00 AM
charles.K
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p.72 #2 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Here is a shot in an outdoor cafe, in northern Phuket with the ZE 100MP. I'm also liking the ZE 35 for travel portraits.







May 29, 2010 at 08:21 AM
adamdewilde
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p.72 #3 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
I can see "positive things" on your horse photos with 50MP, but the effect is really subtle - does 50MP need larger image size to show this properly?? LIke stated many times before, I questioned the flat rendering due to lack of samples showing the look. I'll really hope it's there, and it was just lack of proper sample images.

I'm really hoping to get the lens today, they said in store it will arrive today or Monday. Thou I don't have time to go shooting due to major go-live event at work going on.


Hmmm, based on what you have
...Show more


You may be right, it may not be the lens for me then.. Although I don't mind when you shoot wide open and the background looks like it's spinning out of control, it's kinda a neat trick, though not always wanted.. As I said, I may pick it up, if I can get a REALLY good price on it. If not, then it's kinda out of my head for now. I'm more keen to spend on the 21mm at this point, as I do think the 50 1.4 ZE is just not the lens for me. However, the 50 MP ZE is probably the best option out there for the way I shoot. Well I'm happy with it, something I could never say about the Canon lenses I owned (50 1.8, 50 1.4, 50 1.2L, 50L <-- Original, SUCKED BIG TIME).


I think that you really just need the 50 MP ZE in hand to determine if it works for you. Bottom line, no matter how many sample images you see, if people aren't shooting in a similar style to you then you won't be able to tell from other peoples photos. I will say this much though, the horse photos could be blown up 20x30 and I think it would actually look better then it does on screen. I take a look at them full screen on my 24" monitor and it looks amazing compared to these websites that I'm now looking at from my 15" laptop. Though again what I look for in a lens may not be what you look for in a lens. So no if you did a side by side, I wouldn't rip into you!

In fact, I really do like this forum topic!



May 29, 2010 at 08:43 AM
denoir
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p.72 #4 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Thanks Charles

Two non-nature shots with the 100 MP.

It's really ridiculously sharp:



It's supposed to be a good portrait lens, but to be honest I'm not crazy about how it renders skin color:



May 29, 2010 at 09:42 AM
SKumar25
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p.72 #5 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Some 50 Makro Planar samples from PBase. Hope their owners don't mind me
posting here. Do they look 3-D to you guys?

1.
http://www.pbase.com/image/89175959

2.
http://www.pbase.com/image/90036498

3.
http://www.pbase.com/image/90729101

4.
http://www.pbase.com/image/79449082

5.
http://www.pbase.com/image/95327065

6.
http://www.pbase.com/image/90344209

7.
http://www.pbase.com/image/82310607

8.
http://www.pbase.com/image/91827676



May 29, 2010 at 12:47 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.72 #6 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


SKumar25 wrote:
Some 50 Makro Planar samples from PBase. Hope their owners don't mind me
posting here. Do they look 3-D to you guys?


Since there are sensitive people I try to add as many "in my opinion" etc. but if I forgot from sentence then add in your head...

3D to me is that the object in photograph appears three dimensional, having depth, shape and volume. Most of these just had shallow depth of field; they would be same no matter what lens if you shoot shapeless/hard to figure out shaped stuff. Or then whatever 3D there could be has been ruined by using too shallow depth of field not even giving change for lens to draw the object with texture from large enough surface to make it appear 3D.

So to me 1-4 and 6-7 are just shallow DOF images. In #5 the man's face appears three dimensional in my opinion, however effect would have been even better with slightly larger depth of field, now head of nose drops out from DOF and it has huge negative impact since the main objects part closest to camere should be always in focus for maximum effect. How you found this particular photo, I did go through the pbase few times and didn't see this one, and it seems it's from 2008 so it has definetly been there when I went through the images.



I got my 50MP today, unfortunately it's raining and I have been working whole day due to big go-live on Tuesday.However I had time to shoot few photos on backyard, to verify that I have good copy of the lens (thou I have not heard bad 2/50 samples). Copy seems to be good. Wayne, thaks for providing detailed description about bokeh and transition from DOF to bokeh, it's exactly as you desribed.

Since I don't have good conditions for testing I checked the world class sharpness even wide open / much better than 1.4 planar erc. everybody is swearing this lens having. So I shoot a tree in my backyard from 7.32m+-0.003mm meters (used laser distance meter) away with Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/50 ZE, Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 2/50 ZE and one non-ZE lens (sorry about this being against the subject of this thread) at aperture f/2. Shoot performed from Gitzo 3540XLS + Benro B4 ballhead using live view 10x magnification for focusing and shoot with 5DmkII at moment when wind was not blowing triggered by cable release. EXIF copied from one file to all other files, so not worth trying to see any lens identification from there.

Images processed with same script, which I use for 90% of my images posted to web. Only difference is that I did not apply normal pre-set in Apple Aperture to the images. Crops are as Apple Aperture outputted them to TIFFs, a little sharper result can be achieved for example with DCRAW or Raw Photo Processor due to more advanced formulas of transforming bayer matrix to RGB image.

NOTICE! Images are not suitable for generic drawing style, contrast or color evaluation due to cloud layer not being homogenous causing some lightning/white balance differences. This causes image A to look slightly darker and having larger contrast.

Image A:


Image B:


Image C:


Crops show the focus point (tree trunk) and some bokeh.

Crop A:


Crop B:


Crop C:


I'm not seeing that crushing sharpness advantage or bokeh smoothness quality difference as advertised in this thread. For me the sharpness is irrelevant since on use where sharpness matters most almost all lenses I use exceed 5DmkII sensor's capability to capture detail, much more important is microcontrast bringing out sharpness visible, which can be seen and recorded to RAW-files.

Samuli

EDIT: corrected typos and added few "in my opinion" for sensitive persons.



May 29, 2010 at 02:38 PM
Makten
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p.72 #7 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I have no idea of which is which, but in my opinion () A looks best, followed by C and then B. But, I could be fooled by the heavier vignetting of A and C, giving them a look that makes the contrast higher.

Edit: What the heck let me guess: A is 50 MP, B is Summicron, C is Planar. Might be totally wrong, but B is the least 3D to me. But they all look good.

Edited on May 29, 2010 at 05:23 PM · View previous versions



May 29, 2010 at 04:08 PM
denoir
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p.72 #8 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Hmm, the 100% crops look a bit soft to me. My 50 MP is to arrive on Monday so I can't tell yet if that is representative. To me the 100 MP seems to produce sharper images (viewed at 100%) than those above. It's just a first impression though - I would not swear by it.

Anwyay, crop A has more DOF than the other two. Crop C is the softest but there is a slight difference in FOV between it and the other two. The sharpness between A & B are difficult to judge as A has a larger depth of field.

As for the whole images, A looks definitely best to me. The corner sharpness is much better there. I'm not sure if the blur on the other images is motion blur due to the wind though..

Ranking (best to worst)
1: A
2: B
3: C



May 29, 2010 at 04:39 PM
adamdewilde
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p.72 #9 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


This is based on the 100% crops, I can see flair/CA.
A, seems typical of the 50 MP ZE in terms of how it handles CA. I've never seen flair+CA from the 50 MP ZE like I do in shots B and C, though again thats based on lighting as you said the light was shifting around.

To be honest with you, they all look the same to me.
B, has the most pleasing front focus bokeh, then C, then A... Wind could have caused differences though.

To be frank with you, as I've said before, I don't shoot landscapes. So I couldn't tell you which lens is which, if this is what you were after, and I couldn't tell you why your 50 MP ZE isn't sharp @f2, but I can tell you that I've shot a full body lookbook at f/5.6-11 and the eyes had detailed fibers when I zoomed in.. As well, I shot a few on f/2 while I was adjusting lighting and being bored, and when I nailed focus it was sharp in the spot I focused in on.. Again though this is around 10ft away so maybe caused by distances... Maybe it differs for landscapes?

Let us know, I'm honestly banking on them being all the same lens though
Also, do go out and use the lens, and tell me what you think.. As per our last conversation though, I do think that the 50MP ZE is a better choice for me then the 50 1.4 ZE...



May 29, 2010 at 04:47 PM
adamdewilde
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p.72 #10 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Makten since you're filling up cyberspace with your new 50 1.4 ZE, I think someone needs to give the 35 ZE some love...
It was the perfect time of day, gave me nice colors... (this was from the jpg) The full size RAW file looks amazing on the monitor in full..

So here's a shot from today 35 @ f2, just resized for web (and probably didn't even do it right)..








May 29, 2010 at 04:53 PM
 

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denoir
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p.72 #11 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


adamdewilde wrote:
To be honest with you, they all look the same to me.


You shouldn't look at them as posted here in sequence. Download the images and flip through them and you'll definitely see variations. Differences in distortion become for instance pretty obvious (although since there are no straight lines you can't tell which way the distortions go).



May 29, 2010 at 04:58 PM
Bobu
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p.72 #12 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I have the same ranking as denoir.

1: A (best 3D)
2: B (sharpness like A or even slightly better, but less 3D)
3: C

A and B are pretty close, but I don't like the look of C. I hope this is not the 50MP, because this could lead to buying another lens.

By the way I ordered the 35ZE today.
And thanks for the test Samuli.

Boris



May 29, 2010 at 05:43 PM
philber
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p.72 #13 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I am with Bobu and Makten. Except that I hope (C) isn't the 50 f:1.4, because it could lead to buying another lens....:-(((
Bobu, congratulations on your new lens!
Samuli, thanks for settign up this test. Very interesting. And you and Makten are forcing me (in a good way) to revisit my evaluaiton of the f:1.4. What I put down to softness wide open was mere photographer incompetence..:-(((



May 29, 2010 at 06:45 PM
adamdewilde
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p.72 #14 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


denoir wrote:
You shouldn't look at them as posted here in sequence. Download the images and flip through them and you'll definitely see variations. Differences in distortion become for instance pretty obvious (although since there are no straight lines you can't tell which way the distortions go).



Probably, but I don't shoot landscapes, and my shooting style is probably far different from Samuli's. So for me to download and flip through them would be meaningless for my work.
Though I may just do that for the heck of it... Since you took the time to post the suggestion. I did it with someones purple macro of a flower, thats when I realized that I must have the 100 MP ZE, and thats what started me off on my ZE journey.



May 29, 2010 at 07:02 PM
denoir
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p.72 #15 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


The thing is, one might be tempted to say that they are are more or less equal so it doesn't matter which lens you use. As good and valuable such examples are (by the way, thank you Samuli for taking the time to do it) one can learn only so much from one or a few test shots. I know for instance when I got my 5DII that I was completely convinced that it was no better in terms of image quality than my 7D. I set out to prove it and sure enough my early tests showed when using low ISO, the same glass and when difference in DOF was not apparent, I had a hard time telling them apart.

Yet now after longer use I definitely prefer the look that the 5DII gives me. The 7D is the better camera in terms of functions but the 5DII is in my experience clearly superior in terms of image quality. After many thousands of shots with them both I can say that with certainty. In my LR image library about 85% of the (by me) top rated images were shot with the 5DII.

So a set of test shots can only tell you about certain aspects of the gear. The final evaluation comes first after prolonged use.



May 29, 2010 at 07:37 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.72 #16 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


Even it did rain I decided to go shooting, during the 5 hour hike in forest, it did not rain for 15 minutes, which allowed me to shoot one comparison shot. I did leave lens C home, so here are just lenses A and B. Hike was otherwise very useful, I found out that 50MP is like "mini"-100MP, similar brilliance is in the images. I have just very quickly checked images in Appe Aperture and there were few surprices, which I didn't except to see, but more about those later.

50MP usability on rainy day was excellent; the front element is very deep inside the lens and hood adds little more protection. Focusing mechanism focus feeling is best (according to me) of ZE lenses, due to which the slightly short throw on "normal shooting distances" did not came problem even I had to focus through rain protection sleeve.

The more I think this, it's next to impossible to arrange useful side-by-side shooting. Even on rainy day (it was very overcast, the sky did seem homogenous gray) like this the light just changes too much. This leaves only option to shoot side-by-side in direct sunlight or moonlight. Every other light just changes too much. Any advice would be welcome how to mitigate this. Second 5DmkII would of course help since it's faster to swap camera bodies than lens.

Test shots are shot with lenses A and B using aperture f/2.8, tripod etc. are same as in last shot. Distance is also about the same, thou I don't know exactly since my laser meter was not with me. In Aperture I applied same settings to both images (recovery 0.09, saturation 1.1, highlights 13.06 - this is my preset for image when it's imported into Aperture - not an image specific adjustment optimized for either of these images).

Due to light changing I again would advice against draw any conculsions of contrast, color, "3D" etc.

Ask if you have any questions concerning test images.

Image 2 lens A


Image 2 lens B


Image 2 crop 1 lens A


Image 2 crop 1 lens B


Image 2 crop 2 lens A


Image 2 crop 2 lens B


Now closed down to f/2.8, and I still don't see the advertised superior sharpness advantage of 50MP... (and FYI - I still could not care less about sharpness, just proving wrong the forum BS - there just isn't that big difference between 50mm primes on sharpness, this is one reason why sharpness is really boring discussion topic and pretty meaningless on this kind of simple lenses)

PS. Easier solution than to download images is to open them to tabs then you can flip tabs easily.
PS2. Lenses A, B and C are all different lenses - there is no trick, neither bias towards to any of the lenses, I'll just try to provide information, same time while learning myself.

Samuli



May 29, 2010 at 09:24 PM
denoir
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p.72 #17 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


These two are at the same aperture? A has loads more DOF than B. In this case I like B better as the shallow DOF gives it the type of 3D/depth effect that some here don't approve of.

With two images it actually becomes easy. The 50 MP, being a macro lens must be better corrected for geometrical distortions than the planar. B shows barrel distortion relative A. B also still has vignetting, which I guess should be gone by f/2.8 on the planar.

"A" must be the Makro Planar and "B" the Planar.

Edited on May 29, 2010 at 09:54 PM · View previous versions



May 29, 2010 at 09:53 PM
Mast3rChi3f
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p.72 #18 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


21mm ZE

















100mm ZE













May 29, 2010 at 09:54 PM
Makten
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p.72 #19 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)


I've written my latest blog post in english just for you guys! Enjoy...

http://www.fotosidan.se/blogs/hertsius/48347.htm









May 29, 2010 at 09:57 PM
rexx714
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p.72 #20 · ZE/ZF/ZM Images (Official Thread!)







Zf35 D40. Thx 4 looking...



May 29, 2010 at 10:15 PM
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